Gunto Fittings Metal Types.

[Bencld]

Hello all. Just wondering if anyone knows if the fittings on gunto mounts were metals other than brass or copper  depending on ranks and class ?

Thank you in advance.

Chris D.

[IJASWORDS]

Depending on the type or model of gunto, and I guess who made the outfit for the officer. For example, I have a relative high class '98 with pierced tsuba, and good blade, where the fittings are actually iron, that have been copper plated and gilded. See photos. The gilding is long gone, and only traces of copper remaining. There are not too many metals that are durable enough to use, copper alloys and iron base metals are really the only ones. Neil.

[Bencld]

Hello Neil. Thank you for the reply. The reason I ask is that I have a koshirae that appears to have silver looking fittings. Doubting that it wouldnbe the metal silver but some aluminium alloy ? I have posted some pictures under the post "show us your classy gunto". 

[Bruce Pennington]

Chris,

 

See this Ohmura page,http://ohmura-study.net/714.html, this gunto has "silver" fittings. Also, there are many gunto with aluminum seppa, if that's what you mean.

[David Flynn]

If you had the money (not rank or class), you could get them made in what material one liked.

[Shamsy]

I thought I'd mention I have a habaki that's made of aluminum. It's on a late war leather covered sword. Quite unusual.

[David Flynn]

Not that unusual.  Aluminium (not aluminum) habaki, are usually found on lower class blades with aluminium saya etc.

[Dave R]

 Are you sure it is aluminium and not another white metal alloy? Aluminium is very difficult to solder. 

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Solder-Aluminum

[Shamsy]

Please forgive me for my terrible transgression of a typo Mr Flynn.

 

To be honest Dave I cannot say that it is aluminium with any real certainly. It's welded to the blade with rust so I'm not able to take or off. It certainly look like aluminium though.

 

Has anyone got any other examples of aluminium habaki? Or even confirmed that they are aluminium, since Dave could very well be correct that these are a form of alloy instead...

[David Flynn]

That's Ok, it's just my aversion to being Americanised.  Alloy or whatever, they are still usually found on lower end blades.  I'm not a metalurgist, so I can't really tell the different alloys.

[IJASWORDS]

David, for my sins I am a metallurgist. On the type 44's there were seppa that were made of what's called GERMAN SILVER, an alloy of copper/nickel/zinc. Hard, durable, workable and corrosion resistant. Feeling the weight of a component is a good guide, aluminium in noticeably lighter than the alternatives. Neil.

[Shamsy]

That's Ok, it's just my aversion to being Americanised

I do sympathise, though I find that we have such a mix of pronunciation and spelling between British and American it's difficult to tell the difference. The fact most of these gadgets use English (US) doesn't help. I insist on s instead of z, but otherwise don't worry. Tell you what, when I've put programme instead of program people look at you like an alien...

 

Back in topic, I'd totally forgotten that you were a metallurgist Neil! You would be well placed to make a determination. Unfortunately, as I mentioned the sword is rough from years in a shed or similar, so I have no hope of removing the habaki to check the weight.

[Dave R]

David, for my sins I am a metallurgist. On the type 44's there were seppa that were made of what's called GERMAN SILVER, an alloy of copper/nickel/zinc. Hard, durable, workable and corrosion resistant. Feeling the weight of a component is a good guide, aluminium in noticeably lighter than the alternatives. Neil.

 "German Silver" would make a lot of sense. Cheaper and harder than real silver alloys, and still a nice bit of bling. Also a nod in the direction of tradition as silver or silvered Habaki and Seppa do turn up on traditional blades.

[Dave R]

 

To be honest Dave I cannot say that it is aluminium with any real certainly. It's welded to the blade with rust so I'm not able to take or off. It certainly look like aluminium though.

 

Has anyone got any other examples of aluminium habaki? Or even confirmed that they are aluminium, since Dave could very well be correct that these are a form of alloy instead...

 Hmmm. You've got me thinking here, if it is aluminium it could be cast on the blade as the melting point is so low, rather than welded with rust. Is 660.3C high enough to damage the temper?

[David Flynn]

Shamsy, is the blade a showa to?

[Shamsy]

It certainly looks like it. I can't get the tsuka off either to confirm, but I'd say it'll be a late was mumei with painted kanji.

 

I think Dave could be right about the habaki being cast onto the blade. In the photo you can sort of make out where it looks as though the metal has run slightly. I'll take a better look tonight.

[David Flynn]

I was just asking if it was a showato because, I have never seen an alloy (not counting brass or bronze) on Gendaito.

[Dave R]

 I am even wary of brass habaki on Gendaito and old blades. A lot of what look to be brass turn out to be gilded copper. In my experience copper is the most common material for habaki, often washed, foiled or plated with silver or gold. Solid silver also appears in a minority of cases, gold is known to be used as is shakudo and I have seen what looked like a tin alloy habaki on a Tanto, which I think was a "Yokohama Special". As for brass habaki, I am not sure I have actually seen one in hand other than on Chinese "reproductions, (or Mr Lohman's remounts) though I am happy to be proved wrong on that one.

[Shamsy]

Sorry, I was distracted and am replying a little late! I've had a good look at the habaki. From this I can draw the conclusion.... that I don't know. I think there is a tiny little mold line next to the ha, which could be either a weld or the result of casting. I cannot see any other signs of a weld. The picture I attached earlier shows what I wanted to confirm. Some of the silver metal actually runs onto the blade (you can see that on the left hand side). The little gap to the right is possibly where the metal was poured in? I'll leave that to people who have better experience in that field.

 

Ultimately, I think you could be right Dave. The habaki may be cast to the blade.