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1970's Gendaito....valuable?


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#1 barnejp

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:30 AM

Hello Everyone,

 

Is there much value or current collector interest in purchasing a 1970's gendaito?

 

Examples:

 

1) Katana signed Noshu-ju Kamei AKIHIRA-saku, September in the 47th year of Showa (1972)
 
2) Katana signed Noshu Seki-ju KANENORI kore-wo-tsukuru, Auspicious day December in the 51th year of Showa (1976)
 
Thank you,
Greg

Greg

#2 Stephen

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:47 AM

be nice to see em, Akihira esp.

 

quick search

http://www.sanmei.co...8869_PUP_E.html

 

http://www.sanmei.co...n-us/p1958.html


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                                  Stephen C.

                      USMC      DEC 63      APR 73 

                        ‚Äč"Resident curmudgeon  "


#3 barnejp

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 02:54 AM

Yes, Yuji san, is a good friend.

 

 


Greg

#4 Philip

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 06:23 AM

Would be great to see some pictures and info. 

 

As someone completely new to this...how big is the market for new blades such as these?  Most/all I have been seeing on the forum has been focused on much older blades.

 

Greg,

Is that first link that Stephen posted the same as your number 1?  Year is off by 1 from the description but I was not sure since there wasn't any other info.  Very nice. 



#5 Curran

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 06:50 AM

Philip,

 

It depends on the smith.

In the last 10 to 15 years, prices for the better smiths have risen dramatically from where they were c. 2000-2004.

Even the Gassan works that were pricey then have continued upwards +50 to +100%. Some of the 2nd Growths (sorry, a wine term) are up much more on a % basis.


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#6 barnejp

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 08:15 AM

Hi Philip,

 

Welcome to the site...Good to see another Canadian joining.

 

Answer to your question: The link to the company is correct and the Akihira I listed is from 1972. The blade Stephen linked is a good comparison with the 1972.

 

 

 

 


Greg

#7 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 06:31 PM

There is a real black hole in the gendaito/shinsaku market. As Curran mentions the newer works (2000+) are usually priced pretty highly, as are top works of the WWII era. Art swords (read as those not made for the Iai market), in shirasaya struggle to be sold or if they are, they're at a steep discount in comparison to the newer and older swords. The caveat would be the smith that made it. If you had. Miyairi post war sword, it'll go for a premium. The mid-range smith's and even some current mukansa is where you see the drop offs. I have been able to snap up numerous pieces that are every bit as good as high priced newer and older work at very reasonable prices made in the late 50's to the 80's and 90's. So if you're looking for some good modern work, that's a great era to target!
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#8 Jean

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 07:12 PM

Were I to buy a shinsakuto or a gendaito, I will choose Joe as advisor/counselor. He has a very good taste and has bought a number of nihonto of which some have been put for sale on NMB at a ridiculous bargain price. He has specialized in Gendaito and shinsakuto. I bought one of his tanto at a small price compared to its quality. It is a marvelous shinshinto yoroi doshi, I keep studying it. It has some shirake utsuri on both side and a splendid ko itame and some flowing itame. It was probably the less spectacular of the 3 which were for sale at the same price. It has a a moto kasane of 1 cm...this is a market where he has become a specialist.
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#9 Curran

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 07:25 PM

Were I to buy a shinsakuto or a gendaito, I will choose Joe as advisor/counselor. He has a very good taste and has bought a number of nihonto of which some have been put for sale on NMB at a ridiculous bargain price. He has specialized in Gendaito and shinsakuto. I bought one of his tanto at a small price compared to its quality. It is a marvelous shinshinto yoroi doshi, I keep studying it. It has some shirake utsuri on both side and a splendid ko itame and some flowing itame. It was probably the less spectacular of the 3 which were for sale at the same price. It has a a moto kasane of 1 cm...this is a market where he has become a specialist.

 

I would agree with this.

 

--Fittings are my playground.

I've only purchased one blade in the last decade.

It came from Joe, and is quite the stunner. It holds its own even next to So-den Juyo from the mid to late 1300s.


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#10 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 08:19 PM

Thanks guys. Just because I've spent a bunch of money, doesn't mean I've spent a bunch of money wisely ;)

Or even sold wisely for that matter. The one tanto Curran bought from me, I've been kicking myself for selling the past year or so, since he bought it!

#11 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 08:26 PM

Here's a nice example of a recent purchase. Absolutely gorgeous hamon, well executed horimono, odd/unique zukuri for Sakai Sensei, and a very fair price.

The hada is great too!

IMG_8364.JPG
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#12 Curran

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 08:45 PM

 The one tanto Curran bought from me, I've been kicking myself for selling the past year or so, since he bought it!

 

It will come back to you whenever I get it in my head to buy a Nobuiye or something.

I'd rather it go back to someone who can appreciate and preserve it in its exceptional state of polish.

Great habaki too.


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#13 rkg

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 08:16 PM

Greg,

 

Buying shinsakuto is like buying any other contemporary art - you'd better be buying it because you like it, because chances are you're not going to get what you paid in the secondary market when you go to sell. In fact, its kind of insane to buy them new (except as a tchotchke), as they almost always lose a LOT of value (kinda like buying a new car).  You can try and surf the vagaries of what makers/styles are currently in vogue, try to play the "who's gonna go mukansa" game, etc., but...

 

That said, yeah, it seems like pieces from the '70s are pretty inexpensive (relatively speaking) - and if you want to save even more (at the cost of difficulty in selling later), you can look for pieces that have personal dedications on them - I've been told the Japanese HATE these, and that is reflected in their pricing - but hey, if you're buying it because you like it....  Plus, it is nice not to have to worry so much about preserving history when you study the piece (not that anybody would deliberately abuse a piece, but you don't cry in your beer like you would if you dropped a Shizu...), and you can get some pretty nice work for the cost of a middling pre/during war gendaito (which leaves more in the fund to buy fittings :-) ):

 

Obligatory image:

http://www.rkgphotos...le_shot_sim.jpg

 

 

Best,

rkg

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#14 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 06:51 AM

Nice Yasuaki Richard! That hada... while I prefer a nice, tight, koitame, something must be said for masame! Great pic as per the rkg norm.

#15 w.y.chan

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 08:52 AM

Many smiths did not have the benefit of reliable access to good tamahagane after WW2. This changed in 1977 when the tatara in Shimane was opened by the Japanese government and NBTHK. I think for a lot of smiths the general workmanship improved after that period because of the reliable supply of tamahagane.

 

 

Wah



#16 Jean

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 10:47 AM

I love masame Richard :)
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#17 Bazza

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 11:02 AM

And that stunnink hi-res thumb/fingerprint near the habakimoto!!!

 

BaZZa.


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#18 rkg

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 06:20 PM

And that stunnink hi-res thumb/fingerprint near the habakimoto!!!

 

BaZZa.

Yeah, I really couldn't see that in the pics from the seller until I got it in hand and knew to look for it - I was kind of upset about that, as it shows up just fine in my images of the piece.  Here's a comparison where I shot it two different ways downsized to match the seller's images - in theirs, it looked to me like the scuffing you see sometimes... Please forgive the dust and bad knockouts, these were both test images - mine are on the left, the one from the dealer is on the right:

http://www.rkgphotos...aki_compare.jpg

I've had to kind of replicate the kind of lighting they used before to downplay polish issues/scuffs/etc on a piece that somebody wanted to display a large image of (you also have to use something similar on sashikomi polishes sometimes, but I digress).  I jokingly call it "dealer lighting", though it just occurred to me that maybe a more accurate term is "kesso lighting" :-)

 

In any case, the piece is really impressive in hand - I'm afraid to guess what a 30.something inch hosho piece that wasn't mostly ground away or flawed badly (its almost impossible to make a piece like that without some kind of loose grain somewhere) would cost - it'd probably be better, but....

 

Best,

rkg



#19 rkg

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 06:28 PM

Wah,

 

That is interesting.  Thanks for the information!

Since this piece was dated October 1977 I wonder if it was made from this new iron or not. No doubt no way to know, but...

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

Many smiths did not have the benefit of reliable access to good tamahagane after WW2. This changed in 1977 when the tatara in Shimane was opened by the Japanese government and NBTHK. I think for a lot of smiths the general workmanship improved after that period because of the reliable supply of tamahagane.

 

 

Wah



#20 w.y.chan

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 07:44 PM

Wah,

 

That is interesting.  Thanks for the information!

Since this piece was dated October 1977 I wonder if it was made from this new iron or not. No doubt no way to know, but...

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

 

All smiths are strictly registered after WW2 so I will have no doubt they are informed of access of tamahagane once production of the prized steel has begun. Some well connected smiths will already have surplus tamahagane from the war.

One way of finding out is to see the general work of Yasuaki before and after 1977. I have a feeling your sword had benefitted from the new tamahagane and the smith put extra effort into making it.

 

 

Wah



#21 w.y.chan

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 09:17 AM

Just want to draw your attention to two swords. One by Ningen Kokohu Amada Akitsugu made in 1976 and the other by his younger brother Amada Kanesada made in 1985

 

 

http://www.samurai-n...HOP/V-1526.html

 

http://www.samurai-n...SHOP/K-826.html

 

Not saying anything about possible tamahagane use but assuming the photographer was consistent ;-)

 

It is known Amada Akitsugu makes is own steel but not sure when he started doing so, when he had perfected his own steel or if he had ever used tamahagane supplied by NBTHK?

 

 

Wah



#22 Curran

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:36 PM

Wah,

 

While taught by a very experienced polisher that most modern swords went up in quality in the late 1970s in part due to the NBTHK tamahagane,

Infer that as you will. We digress from the original point of this thread.

The production of tamahagane by the NBTHK lead to an increased in general quality and also- in my opinion- a homogeneity that is so pervasive that I find it hard to overlook.

 

Some of the pre 1977 works are the most stunning of the 20th century.

While the post 1977 tamahagane elevates the baseline, over time it has come to detract in my appreciation that almost all dishes (modern swords) are rice based. My own opinion is that diversity (call it a pasta based dish in place of rice now and then) is appealing. The most appealing 20th century blade I know is dated 1972 with the mukansa smith sourcing his own tamahagane and testified by his former assistants that it had to be hand hammered by his assistants in 1972, since his neighbors objected to the noise of his use of a pneumatic (air) hammer.

 

In summary, don't dish on the pre-1977 stuff.

While the baseline was lower, some of the best artistry of the 20th century comes from the passionate efforts of a few smiths in the 1954-1977 stretch.

Most all of those guys went Mukansa, so when you see a mukansa smith blade dated from that period..... give it a serious look.


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#23 w.y.chan

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:15 PM

Curran,

 

Nobody is dishing on the pre 1977 swords. I knew the potential someone might see my comment as denegrating postwar to pre 1977 shinsakutos. That is not what I said. "Most" does not mean "All".

There are always exception, as I mentioned in my previous post, some smiths will have surplus from the war or other sources. I would also guess the chances are these are usually the top smiths who produces fantastic work and had access to old tamahagane. The few top smiths like Gassan, Akihira, Okimasa and Kuniie, etc, from the early postwar era would have had surplus of old tamahagane and produces excellent work before 1977 and every bit as good as anything produced in Shinto even some Koto era and rivals the best work of today by the top smiths.

 

Mukansa smiths swords from the early 70s were very good but "in general" their post 1977 work were better relative to their earlier work.

 

Wah



#24 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 04:08 AM

Sorry to revive a dead post, but here is a really good sword by Maeda Nobuhide at a VERY fair price IMO. He studied with his father Yoshiteru, who learned from Kawashima Tadayoshi.

http://www.nipponto....s3/NT327471.htm
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