Sanbonsugi Question

[Chango]

Probably a longshot but does anyone happen to know which swordsmith made the sword shown on page 33 of "Art of the Samurai" book by the Met Museum? The book states the photos were by Fujishiro Okisato.

 

 

Thanks!

[Gabriel L]

One might presume a later-generation Kanemoto but if you're asking if we know which sword / smith was used for this photo… well, I don't.

[Kronos]

Gabriel echo's my own thoughts, kodai kanemoto based off probability but if it isn't described in the book it'd be very hard to find out. If it's a book by the net maybe it's a sword in their collection?

[Chango]

As it's part of a set of pics from (a) Fujishiro I had hoped maybe it was lifted out of a Japanese language book somewhere with more information. As I said, a longshot

 

I guess what I'm really interested in are any examples of Kanemoto II with a more regular (1 tall, 2 small) sanbonsugi hamon rather than the more typical artistic free sanbonsugi his work is generally noted for ...

[Derek]

As has been posted here many times, anything is possible, but anything other than the usual needs to be carefully considered. 

Kanemoto 1 shows no sanbonsugi.  Kanemoto 2 (Magoroku 1) shows very irregular sanbonsugi.  Regular patterns equal later generations.  This must be one factor, along with appropriate sugata, boshi, and signature.

If one of these is off, it probably is a later generation.  But only shinsa will answer this question for sure, as there are exceptions. 

In my opinion, trying to find one-off examples can only lead you down the wrong path. 

Looking over your sword that you posted in another thread, I see a later generation, but it is worth shinsa to know for sure. 

[Jean]

FWIW, a few Mino smiths forged in sanbonsugi who were not Kanemotos.

[Chango]

As has been posted here many times, anything is possible, but anything other than the usual needs to be carefully considered. 

Kanemoto 1 shows no sanbonsugi.  Kanemoto 2 (Magoroku 1) shows very irregular sanbonsugi.  Regular patterns equal later generations.  This must be one factor, along with appropriate sugata, boshi, and signature.

If one of these is off, it probably is a later generation.  But only shinsa will answer this question for sure, as there are exceptions. 

In my opinion, trying to find one-off examples can only lead you down the wrong path. 

Looking over your sword that you posted in another thread, I see a later generation, but it is worth shinsa to know for sure. 

 

It's really more about curiosity than trying to prove that particular sword one way or another. We all know "digital shinsa" is iffy at best in most cases. I would like to get that blade polished and papered but my son is having medical issues and we're short on cash so it will probably have to wait a couple more years.

 

Anyway, during the course of my information hunt for that blade I kept hearing (and seeing) Magoroku did a wide variety of hamon patterns apart from the artistic irregular sanbonsugi he's famous for, including regular sanbonsugi.

 

There's a papered Magoroku tanto up for sale on AOI with regular sanbonsugi:

 

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/tanto-kanemoto-magoroku

 

This one also seems similar in pattern and quite regular: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17513/lot/3157/

 

There's also one that looks very regular in this book: https://www.amazon.com/Lords-Samurai-Legacy-Daimyo-Family/dp/0939117479but the picture is not large and detailed enough to get much from it.

 

Just wondering if there are any more out there, or if maybe the pic in post #1 was an example of one.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Sounds like you're just admitting that you really like sanbonsugi hada, Jason, so why not start keeping a pictorial list of the examples you find? Quite a difference, for example, between shodai & nidai, & each of them also had changes in how they forged hamon over the years.

Ken

 

[SwordGuyJoe]

The first step is admitting you have a problem. Now the healing can begin

[seattle1]

Hello:

 It is curious that a blade so highly vouched for by Aoi and with the ranking of Kanemoto (Magoroku) is not beyond Hozon. It is strongly machi-okuri and the jiri has been suriaged; are those things sufficient limitation on such a highly rated smith, or could it be saiba? Look at what might or might not be mizukage.

 Arnold F.

[Chango]

The first step is admitting you have a problem. Now the healing can begin

 

Sounds like you're just admitting that you really like sanbonsugi hada, Jason, so why not start keeping a pictorial list of the examples you find? Quite a difference, for example, between shodai & nidai, & each of them also had changes in how they forged hamon over the years.

 

Ken

 

Could be worse... right? After all, I could be fascinated by Touken Ranbu instead.  

 

But yes, I have been collecting pics and trying to understand the differences between the Kanemoto generations...

[Chango]

Hello:

 It is curious that a blade so highly vouched for by Aoi and with the ranking of Kanemoto (Magoroku) is not beyond Hozon. It is strongly machi-okuri and the jiri has been suriaged; are those things sufficient limitation on such a highly rated smith, or could it be saiba? Look at what might or might not be mizukage.

 Arnold F.

 

You'd think AOI would say something about a flaw as bad as that; doesn't re-tempering destroy the value?

 

Perhaps getting that big (孫六) on the origami was all they felt they needed to make $$$.

[Kronos]

If it were saiba the papers would mention it. Any signed sword by magaroku is going to pass th provided there's no fatal flaws so does th add any value? Not really as the difference between an almost juyo and his worst tired work is all going to lie in the th range so one has to rely on their own eyes to judge qaulity.

[Guido]

Hello:

 It is curious that a blade so highly vouched for by Aoi and with the ranking of Kanemoto (Magoroku) is not beyond Hozon. It is strongly machi-okuri and the jiri has been suriaged; are those things sufficient limitation on such a highly rated smith, or could it be saiba? Look at what might or might not be mizukage.

 Arnold F.

 

The NBTHK doesn't issue any papers if a sword is saiha. What looks a little like mizukage is probably the result of the heated copper blocks used to "soften" the ha to move up the machi.

 

We also discussed already before somewhere why some (especially Japanese) collectors don't see the need to go higher than hozon just to verify the mei.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 I have no opinion as to saiba or not without the blade in hand, but at the moment two things remain unresolved:

 1.The marks could be heat application to make machi-okuri easier, however the truncation of the hamon seems very high relative to the mei, and the hand drawing of Aoi seems to end just at the ha-machi, the former of those two observations being perhaps more telling.

 2. Economists are not supposed to conjoin "filthy" and "lucre", but to say that Hozon is enough when greater than Hozon would have a significant price boost, seems self-defeating. For most collectors the satisfaction of Juyo, for example, isn't just a matter of confirmation of artistic worth.

 Arnold F.

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

to say that Hozon is enough when greater than Hozon would have a significant price boost, seems self-defeating

Arnold, you're back on a touchy subject. Many of us collect because we love the blade, & not because we're thinking about its resale value. Sufficient numbers of others have addressed this, so I won't elaborate, except to say that my Nihonto collection will be staying in the family, rather than being sold, when my day is done. Thus, I deem anything more than what is needed for adequate provenance as totally unnecessary. Your own mileage may vary.

 

Ken

 

[Jim P]

Hi Ken, Touchy subject? So are you saying that if one of your swords was able to get Tokubetsu juyo you would not jump at the chance? Arnold is stating what most collectors think when they see a big name blade yes I know that hozon is all that is needed to confirm the mei  but why do think we all send in swords for shinsa above hozon ? if not to confirm what we and others think of its quality and we all collect because we love blades, why would we sink 10s of thousand’s $ in to them knowing that we will be lucky if we get the $ back if not for love of nihonto I would do all I can to improve my swords standing why because when I am gone others will not have the same understanding I have and the papers will help them understand nihonto a bit more

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yes, as a matter of fact, that's exactly what I'm saying. Once my blade has passed shinsa, then I see no reason to take it any further. I decided to buy the blade based on my evaluation of what it was, & had it confirmed, so I'm satisfied.

 

Now that doesn't mean that I might not buy a blade with higher origami, for whatever reason, but I see no value in seeing if the ones I already own might get papers above hozon token. Again, for me, it makes no difference, but NBTHK & NTHK provide services because there are others, including you & Arnold, who see value in seeing how far they can go. Instead, I'll save my money to buy my next blade.

 

Ken

 

[Jean]

My Opinion FWIW. Often people put their sword on shinsa for higher papers for the following reasons:

 

- to get a return on investment. The higher the paper the more $$$ value. Often, it is for jo saku smiths or even jo jo saku smiths (Juyo shinsa) - most people in western countries link kanteisho level with $$$.

 

- to prove themselves they were able to find a diamond in the rough/mud.

 

Of course it is a western way of thinking. A Go Yoshiro hozon katana must be worth a juyo one in terms of $.

 

Often when school or smith are kanteied in the Hozon certificate, it is enough to fix its value.

 

I have seen a Hozon Awataguchi daito sold for 60k$. No need for a connoisseur to have a Juyo level, it won't increase its value.

 

 

Concerning NBTHK, there are always exceptions. A few years ago, I saw at DTI side by side a Sadamune tanto retempered by Yasutsugu and its utsushi by the same Yasutsugu, both blades (if I remember well) Tokubetsu Juyo (or one juyo and the other tokuju). But it was Sadamune...

[Guido]

That Sadamune blade Jean mentions is one of the extremely rare exceptions of a saiha getting papered at all - mostly because of the historical context. He is also right about the most famous smiths often not having more than hozon papers: it's all that is needed to confirm the authenticity (of the mei), and that it doesn't have a fatal flaw. If the signature of that sword is let's say Kanemitsu, why would one waste time and money on getting higher papers?The sale price will not change, at least not in Japan. With low to middle ranked smiths, it's an entirely different ballgame.

 

Also, dealers - especially those with a high turnaround - don't have the luxury of waiting for higher papers, they want to recover their investment as soon as possible, and leave it to the customers to go through all the years of papering processes.

[Jim P]

Hi Ken,  I posted The Pass Rate for 62Th Annual Juyo Examination not long ago and what it told me was they were not passing a lot of swords why? Because they were not the best examples and rightly so. Not all Kanemitsu, are equal so I always thought it was about the best examples at the top and not about $ but as Guido said it's a lot more complicated for later swords but it’s the same for koto so you may be happy with a Kanemitsu, I would be happier with the best Kanemitsu, and how do I know it’s one of the best by looking at the top of the system for other examples like Darcy does when he looks at the Juyo lists not the hozon lists

[Brian]

I can't afford to buy anything and not care about the resale value. Sad, but this is my retirement, or a large part of it. Not just the swords, but everything I collect and accumulate. So I HAVE to concern myself with values. I don't think it goes against collecting either. Nothing wrong with either approach. My blades aren't papered, but then I make damn sure I pay the value of an unpapered and possibly gimei sword. If I bought a papered blade, I would be considering how good a deal it is, and what will happen in the future. Can't afford not to.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Ken says: "Arnold, you're back on a touchy subject. Many of us collect because we love the blade, not because we're thinking about its resale value." I think that statement misses what was written. I was simply pointing out that, given the price asked and what is seen on the images, it is curious that it only has a Hozon. If Hozon only, yes we can take it that the mei is correct with at least minimal confidence. I do not have an opinion that the  Magoroku Kanemoto is saiba or not, and the issue raised by Guido about heat application could be entirely valid. I suppose it could even be an actual mizukage, but such are known in Mino with Kanesada's work, but I don't know about Kanemoto.

 Further in reply to Jim P. Ken says "...there are other, including you & Arnold, who see value in seeing how far they can go."

 Well a touchy subject perhaps, but I have commented here and elsewhere many times that "investing" in Japanese swords, or any (!) art object, is given the risk of the asset, and the fact that it does not supply a stream of income when held over time by the owner and only delivers an inflation adjusted "gain" at the time of sale, its gain will be less than an income yielding asset like a bond or stock and thus it is a BAD investment alternative, other things being equal. My position on that goes as far back as 1972 in an article found in Caldwell, Randolph B. ed. The Book of the Sword. Dallas: Token Kenkyu Kai, 1972, titled "On Investing in Japanese Swords," pp.121-140. It was delivered at the NBTHK Dallas shinsa of that date. That is only a little over Economics 101, but it is the filthy lucre part of it, and it demonstrates why investing in art/swords is a bad idea compared to many non-tangible alternatives, i.e., financial assets.

  The issue of trying to treat swords as a speculative asset, something I have never advocated, is entirely different from whether one should go for a paper higher than Hozon. Ken may hold the ethereal view that it doesn't matter, but as others above have stated it does matter. Swords that get higher papers don't get them just to confirm a Hozon call of a mei being right, or it belonging to such and such a group at a certain time, but it helps the owner understand more fully the intrinsic qualities the blade possesses. When we, or our estates, do decide to sell, those higher designations can come into play in dollar terms, and one's heir's would certainly appreciate it.

 Guido makes a very valid point that the time cost of getting higher papers, to say nothing of the higher monetary cost, is a disincentive for a dealer to get the higher paper. At some point however foregoing what could be a Juyo would make no sense, though perhaps in Japan a Hozon is sufficient on things that might otherwise peak out at Tokubetsu Hozon, for the resident can submit it to the NBTHK on his own. Aoi, the dealer of the Kanemoto, however has a large foreign buying public and once out of Japan the return and get back process is fraught with various roadblocks. In that context I still find the Kanemoto flying only Hozon colors somewhat strange. As ordinary fishermen might know more about catching a fish than an ichthyologist, so perhaps we can assume a sword dealer knows what he is doing! That's good enough for me, just curious.

 Arnold F.

[Brian]

To some, the idea of an investment is something that you put money into, and later cash in to make a profit.
To me, it is something that I buy..that I can get serious enjoyment out of for many years, and then maybe oneday when I sell it..I will get some money back. Probably a loss, but still some money...call it renting enjoyment. I could be spending it on dining out, or going to the movies or clubbing every weekend. But instead I get to surround myself with "stuff" that I love, and that I don't have to throw away when I am done with it...it will still bring me back some return. Bargain!
To me..it is better than investing my money, because I get all those years of enjoying it...whereas pure investments usually pay off when it is late in life to really enjoy the journey.
Just some thoughts from me on the subject. Not about profit..about renting fun
And to bring this on topic...better papers get me a better return on that rental eventually. So always preferable if I can do it. If not, so be it. Depends on how serious you are in to this thing.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

One day my time will expire. Tomorrow or in 50 years I'll probably (hopefully) have a nanosecond of time to realize it. And I'll be happy to have invested in MEMORIES. Memories of moments passed together with what I love and that gave me joy.

F@CK THE MONEY. Every time I really needed it  for my father, brother, mother,uncle,all and everybody of my family but me (wife and sons excepted) I realized it is merely paper that convention between humans put over sentiments and art and that can't buy time.

Paper to get more paper ? Nonsense to me. Follow your heart.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 "renting enjoyment" - excellent analogy Brian! That is exactly what one does, foregoes a monetary income stream for the psychic income stream of enjoyment. I wish I had thought of putting it that way in the paper.

 Arnold F.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yes, as I said, a touchy subject. To me, my approach isn't ethereal at all - I have my papered blade in front of me to enjoy, instead of having it sitting in Japan waiting for shinsa & the next set of papers. Thank goodness our collection isn't our retirement! And I totally agree with Brian's "renting enjoyment." I'm nothing but a caretaker for our collection, & even the next "keeper" - our granddaughter - loves to sit & just gaze at a blade while I'm looking at another one...our psychic stream of enjoyment!

 

Ken