Buying Ww2 Era Swords From Japan?

[barnejp]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have several collector friends in Japan (who are Japanese) and whenever I bring up the topic of "I'm looking to purchase WW2ish sword"  they basically prefer to move on to an earlier era.

 

What WW2 swords from 1937 onward is legal for Japanese collectors to purchase and sell overseas without major regulations?

 

Thank you,

Greg

[lonely panet]

Any traditionally made gendai is fine. Katana or otherwise.

 

If i could just at a guess subject why your Japanese friends change the subject is most Japanese collectors think gendai are inferior compared to other periods. Many reasons for this are poor materials, poor swordsmiths, mass production, no visable traditions and the bad memorys of ww2.

 

There will be many smiths that i think buck that trend.

 

But they are the exception to the rule.

Yasukunito

Minatoga shrine swords

Yoshihara

Gassen

Etc

[David Flynn]

I purchased a Gendai in full Shin Gunto mounts ( including tassel ) at the last DTI.  The sword is from (as far as I can tell) an unlisted smith (Yasumasa).  However, I bought the sword for the blade. I believe it is done in Soshu style and the Hataraki is outstanding. I don't fully agree with Hamfish,  Gendai like all other periods have swords ranging from  mediocre through to master pieces.

[barnejp]

David, Thank you for your reply.

I guess to further my question;

I'm interested post 1937 gendai... Do all swords/blades from this time frame need to be registered with the Japanese Gov't before shipping overseas?

[barnejp]

Thank you Hamfish.

 

So based on your list, I should be able to purchase from Japan without any problems?

 

Greg

[David Flynn]

Yes, but it takes a couple of weeks to derigister them.  Mine was posted to me 2 weeks after purchase.

As you live in Canada, I would check out the Canadian and American dealers first.

[barnejp]

Who pays for the cost of doing this...and about how much in yen?

[David Flynn]

it's usually included in the price.

[The_ozzy_samurai]

Trust me,The Japanese will avoid anything to do with or that relates to WW2 they hate the fact they were going to be to be blown off this planet and had to surrender or face total destruction of country and population,surrender for Japan was the hardest thing they ever had to do,they where born n breed from the early 1900's with bushido as religion the old samurai code,as you know surrender wasnt an option for them and thats how they where raised from childhood,so to avoid heavy loss's the US knew they had to drop the bombs or it would be fighting every man,women n child upon a ground invasion, even to this day in Japan WW2 is not a subject even mentioned in schools most of todays population have no idea of the history of WW2 and how close Japan came to being a big hole in the ground,anything from Japan relating to WW2 in Japan is junk,to us its collectable so i say keep pushing your friends for the WW2 stuff,you should get it a good rates compared to buying from western countries,

 

Julian

[David Flynn]

Julian, you're wrong. Have you been to Japan?  Have you been to the DTI?  Gendaito are not Junk in Japan.  Many are pulling comparative prices to antiques.

[lonely panet]

Julian

 

opinions are like bums, some are very nice (Miranda Kerr) and some are magnificent (Hugh Jackman)

 

but yours is like Susan Boyles. only to be view through welding goggles

[IJASWORDS]

If a sword passes SHINSA in any country, does that automatically allow it to move in and out of Japan freely? Neil

[David Flynn]

Only swords deemed Nihonto, are allowed  back into Japan. 

[Jimmy R]

Smiths in Japan need a lcense to produce Nihonto now. This is old news and has been that way for decades. I have seen every manner of sword wth torokusho. And, not to shoot you down Ozzy, but WWII fittings and memorabilia is all over the place here. It is sold openly and for more money than in the states. The Samurai ethos was used to propagandize Japan. Saying Japan lived by the code of bushido is like saying Americans lived by the code of the west. Bushido is a romantic notion.

[David Flynn]

Unfortunately, Julian has stirred up a lot of issues.  I have just deleted a post that was here, as I don't  want to propagate debate on something that is not conducive to this board.

[Bruce Pennington]

Julian, your notion of why America dropped the bombs is also wrong,  ignorant and arrogant.  That was American propaganda at the time.  The real reason, was to impress upon the Russians that America was the superior power.  Don't forget, Russia declared  war on Japan, six weeks before the surrender. America was trying to deter Russian influence in the East.  Well we know how that worked don't we.  Korea, Vietnam etc.

This is a discussion that should be on another thread. And David, I'd be happy to toss that around with you if you care to start the thread.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Trust me,The Japanese will avoid anything to do with or that relates to WW2 they hate the fact they were going to be to be blown off this planet and had to surrender or face total destruction of country and population,surrender for Japan was the hardest thing they ever had to do,they where born n breed from the early 1900's with bushido as religion the old samurai code,as you know surrender wasnt an option for them and thats how they where raised from childhood,so to avoid heavy loss's the US knew they had to drop the bombs or it would be fighting every man,women n child upon a ground invasion, even to this day in Japan WW2 is not a subject even mentioned in schools most of todays population have no idea of the history of WW2 and how close Japan came to being a big hole in the ground,anything from Japan relating to WW2 in Japan is junk,to us its collectable so i say keep pushing your friends for the WW2 stuff,you should get it a good rates compared to buying from western countries,

 

Julian

LOL. Thanks for the chuckle Julian.

[Brian]

We have 2 extremes here, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. Yes...a LOT of collectors and dealers in Japan avoid wartime blades. Just because there are some commercially minded dealers who have gotten over the bias, doesn't change the fact that probably half the dealers don't really wort with wartime blades. And the population that is generally ok with traditional swords, cuts up wartime ones found that are not registered, whether gendaito or not.
It will take a long time before wartime blades are recognized the same way earlier swords are. Yes...there are lots of top gendaito out there. Which allows dealers who are in the know to profit and market them to the collectors who are just as educated.
Also, I think there is some confusion as to the status of swords in Japan. ALL legal swords are registered there, and transfer of ownership is supposed to be done, and an export process followed when they leave the country. This has nothing to do with shinsa. They are registered when they enter Japan, and that registration stays with them throughout.
This whether early or modern. But non traditional wartime blades are banned, and cannot be owned or registered, and with the occasional "error" are not licensed or legal to own if arsenal made and Showato.

[IJASWORDS]

When a sword passes SHINSA and gains papers from that organisation, is that specific sword given an identity and placed on a data base for future reference? Can papers be crossed referenced any where? Or are papers relative to that sword at that time only, and copies and records not kept? Neil.

[David Flynn]

Always many Gunto mounted swords at the DTI.  As far as I can tell, they're treated like all other swords.  I have now been to the DTI six times and as a Gendaito collector, I take particular note of the amount of Gunto on offer. In fact, I have actually noticed an increase in the amount of Gunto offered. However, I have not seen any for sale there with Showa or Seki stamps.  That doesn't mean they are not there, I just have not seen them. Maybe someone else who has been to the DTI has seen some?

[w.y.chan]

I was intrigued but not surprise by the wide interest in WW2 era nihonto in a number of Chinese language sword forum sites. The recent appreciation of gendaitos might no longer be driven by western collectors anymore.

 

 

Wah

[Bruce Pennington]

I was intrigued but not surprise by the wide interest in WW2 era nihonto in a number of Chinese language sword forum sites. The recent appreciation of gendaitos might no longer be driven by western collectors anymore.

Wah

Wah, makes sense that the Chinese would develop an interest in collecting. What this means, though, is it will make Fake spotting more complex. Up to now, anytime I see an eBay offer coming from China, I disregard it automatically. But if there is a real collector population growing there, one should take a real look at an offer coming from there for it might be legit.

[IJASWORDS]

I'm with Bruce, any association with a sale from China/Thailand/India sets off alarm bells. However, maybe serious Chinese collectors should be encouraged to join NMB and be given to opportunity to learn, discuss and show their GENDAITO. This way we could all ensure that we are aware of what's being collected/traded in China. Neil.     

[barnejp]

Thanks everyone...great discussion.

 

 

[w.y.chan]

I cant verify it but it is my feeling there are already Chinese collectors from HK or even Mainland China already visit NMB. They have been collecting for awhile and now a lot more.

That said I would not be surprsie if some are every bit as clued up as some of the established experts.

 

 

Wah

[Brian]

I agree with Wah. There are a number of collectors from there that visit, and the stats show quite a lot of traffic from there. But seeing as it is basically illegal in China, and they do it under threat of prosecution, no wonder they are a bit wary about participating. Like in Russia, where there is a large underground collecting fraternity in bayonets etc, which are also illegal.
Everywhere in the world you get this. For some, it is an added thrill to collecting. For others (such as some of the wealthy Chinese) it is somewhere to put excess funds, and considered a form of art. Used to be the Arab countries..then Russia, and now China.

[w.y.chan]

Despite what the law says, in China if you have money the authority sometimes look the other way. 

Over a decade ago I heard about a Japanese polisher bringing swords over to China. There is at least one Japanese swordsmith working in China and trained local deshi. We all know plenty of Japanese style swords commming out of the country so I have my doubt collecting being prohibited. There might be import restriction in place but even that I'm not sure if there is one, someone here might know more about that? Aoi and several other dealers has Chinese language sale websites some accepting China UnionPay. Maybe swords are imported to HK and moved into the Mainland? 

 

I saw an interesting article from a mainland Chinese news about Amada Akitsugu, his death was reported, and it show examples of his work with explanation such as "unspeakable beauty" and "like the masterpiece of Kamakura"

 

 

Wah

[w.y.chan]

I agree with Wah. There are a number of collectors from there that visit, and the stats show quite a lot of traffic from there. But seeing as it is basically illegal in China, and they do it under threat of prosecution, no wonder they are a bit wary about participating. Like in Russia, where there is a large underground collecting fraternity in bayonets etc, which are also illegal.

Everywhere in the world you get this. For some, it is an added thrill to collecting. For others (such as some of the wealthy Chinese) it is somewhere to put excess funds, and considered a form of art. Used to be the Arab countries..then Russia, and now China.

 

I also notice several registered NMB members with very mainland Chinese names but never posted. If I was hunting swords and looking around for info about potential buys I probably do the same and just lurk

 

On the subject of WW2 swords anyone wonder why Kao Isshin Mantetsu swords we all consider as low end suddenly selling fast at high prices?

 

 

 

Wah

[David Flynn]

It's a fad.

[Brian]

This.... ^