51 replies to this topic

[mauser99]

Wayne,

Interesting point. I once read that the city of Nagoya had 17 sword factories surrounding it. I know the Seki operation had many more than that. So, in once sense, it's surprising that there isn't more variation in the font than there is. But I guess it depends upon where, and by whom, the stamping was done.

I  mostlycollect weapons ww2 German.  Hence the Mauser99.   Serial fonts are seriously studied in that side of the hobby as the forgeries are crazy. As for a factory its not uncommon for them to be changed as they did break or wear out.  But, you see a gradual deterioration of the stamp then replacement.  The font differences here could be two things. One a different factory or just two sets of stamps for different shifts maybe ? Or two separate lines in the factory.     

[Stegel]

Great observation Wayne!

I have come across numerous different fonts across the different patterns, the fakes that come from china use a specific font aswell, which everytime i see it, gets me on guard straight away and i begin looking for other tell tale signs to confirm if it is genuine.

 

I can only talk about the things i have observed over the years of my collecting, and mention them now.

 

i would place the serial number stampings on all blades into 3 catagories, 1-Light  2-Normal and 3-Heavy.

This appears to be across all Arsenals and is not specific to any one in particular.

I suspect  that you are spot on Wayne, the 'out sourcing' of parts meant that each supplier possibly had different fonts and applied varying pressure in stamping the blades/scabbards.

 

With the inspection stampings, it was observed that the Tokyo 1st blades generally had good inspection stampings, whilst Nagoya blades had lighter stampings. This is put down to the hardening process where Tokyo 1st inspected and stamped the blades prior to hardening, whereas Nagoya inspected and stamped the inspection Kanji post hardening

 

If you look at inspection stamps, all the aluminium handled side lock latch models in the 130k range have a lightly stamped Nagoya kanji preceding the serial number (ok there  are a few with no inspection stamp also) In the 200k range, only a Seki Kanji is used. This also applies to scabbard stampings.

This is also lightly stamped and precedeing the serial number. This continued on with the wooden handle pattern 5 in the 200k range.

[mauser99]

I looked at my other this morning and its in the 133k range with the deep wide font.  Arsenal markings on the ferrule are non-existent for the most part.

 

When I get the other I will do a side by side comparison.  As the early one was under Kokura and the other under Nagoya.

[mauser99]

Great observation Wayne!

I have come across numerous different fonts across the different patterns, the fakes that come from china use a specific font aswell, which everytime i see it, gets me on guard straight away and i begin looking for other tell tale signs to confirm if it is genuine.

 

I can only talk about the things i have observed over the years of my collecting, and mention them now.

 

i would place the serial number stampings on all blades into 3 catagories, 1-Light  2-Normal and 3-Heavy.

This appears to be across all Arsenals and is not specific to any one in particular.

I suspect  that you are spot on Wayne, the 'out sourcing' of parts meant that each supplier possibly had different fonts and applied varying pressure in stamping the blades/scabbards.

 

With the inspection stampings, it was observed that the Tokyo 1st blades generally had good inspection stampings, whilst Nagoya blades had lighter stampings. This is put down to the hardening process where Tokyo 1st inspected and stamped the blades prior to hardening, whereas Nagoya inspected and stamped the inspection Kanji post hardening

 

If you look at inspection stamps, all the aluminium handled side lock latch models in the 130k range have a lightly stamped Nagoya kanji preceding the serial number (ok there  are a few with no inspection stamp also) In the 200k range, only a Seki Kanji is used. This also applies to scabbard stampings.

This is also lightly stamped and precedeing the serial number. This continued on with the wooden handle pattern 5 in the 200k range.

You are spot on as far as evaluating fakes.  The swords are getting better and better but, When you look at the serial # on the blade and scabbard it sint even close to an orig.   Same with some forged German items.  They don't get the small detail correct.  We all must be detailed oriented when spotting fakes. 

[mauser99]

Here is one of the better fakes I have seen. Stu W. posted it over on WAF.    The overall construction is better than most.

The grip is painted very well.  Saya color is all wrong but when you get to the # stamps that's when it all goes away.

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[Shamsy]

I think that the stamping also depends on whether or not the numbers were applied via roller or hand. The deep serials are rolled on via machine and are therefore uniformly applied and even. The most shallow numbers look to be struck by hand and consequently are often not aligned, sometimes overstruck and missing part of the number from a poorly angled strike.

I will post some pictures tonight if I can since my pattern 4 falls into the very lightly stamped by hand variety. It's also got that distinctly light brown paint and light fuchi stamps.

Luckily Wayne that fake just screams Chinese to me, but I'm sure one day it will be near impossible to tell.

Cheers guys, enjoying this thread!

[IJASWORDS]

This whole numbering discussion has me looking closely at my NCO's. Pulled out some pattern 5 and 6 to examine and photograph. Found mis-aligned, a 9 that looks like a g, a 3 that has been mis-hit or over stamped, differing fonts. Certainly opens a new area of study.
If it wasn't for the forum, I would be ignorant of the varieties out there. Please keep the observations coming, I think they add to the enjoyment of the collecting. Neil.

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[mauser99]

You can always sell a Jinsen blade has the larger font and of course a totally different serial range.

 

On the Nagoya you can see the use of two totally different  7's  being used...

[Shamsy]

As promised here are a couple of pictures showing the very shallow stamping that appears to be hand struck and the fuchi with the Seki and Nagoya stamps.

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[mauser99]

very exciting... That one is very close to the one I just purchased. Being 201861 .

 

The wood grip variants seem to start in the 203xxx serial range.  I haven't seen one any lower.  As anyone else ?

[Bruce Pennington]

I bet Stegel would know! My only one is 211,894 seki. StuW shows a pic of one that is 206,027.

[Stegel]

very exciting... That one is very close to the one I just purchased. Being 201861 .

 

The wood grip variants seem to start in the 203xxx serial range.  I haven't seen one any lower.  As anyone else ?

Well Wayne,

Lowest wooden handle that i know of ,,,,,  201879  . This is only 18 digits higher...... with Fullered blade!

Wayne, I assume your's is an Aluminium handle patterm 4??

[IJASWORDS]

This topic has got me taking a second look at my NCO's. Attached is a photo of a pattern 6 with wood handle and wood scabbard. A small stamp is on the drag. Help in identification would be appreciated. Neil.

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[Stegel]

Neil,

The stamp preceding the serial number and on the drag is ‘He’ .  It is the Jinsen  Army Arsenal  Inspection Stamp from Pyongyang Heigo Factory, and is sometimes found in conjunction with the second class military weapon stamp.... the kanji for 2 inside a circle.

You will only find these on the Patterns 6, 7, & 8. All the Wooden scabbard models.

 

Sometimes you will also find it on the scabbard throat metal work and the fuchi area of these swords.

[mauser99]

Well Wayne,

Lowest wooden handle that i know of ,,,,,  201879  . This is only 18 digits higher...... with Fullered blade!

Wayne, I assume your's is an Aluminium handle patterm 4??

I already posted but, here it is again.  Right at the end of the aul. grip variants.

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[Bruce Pennington]

Update:

All ugly paint removed. Uncovered a Nagoya stamp on the drag! Next us a trip to a powder-coat shop to see if they can reproduce an accurate color for a re-paint.

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[Windy]

Fascinating stuff Bruce, and such a great source of info for a beginner like me.

You guys are quite lucky out your way, these NCOs are fetching big numbers here in the U.K. I saw another one in an auction last week, it made £480 ($599)!!!

Keep up,the good work

Matt

[Bazza]

Here is one of the better fakes I have seen. Stu W. posted it over on WAF.    The overall construction is better than most.

The grip is painted very well.  Saya color is all wrong but when you get to the # stamps that's when it all goes away.

Here is a Traditionalist chipping in!!!  Wayne, your 53827 number to me looks most unlike a stamp.  The minute irregularities within the numbers themselves suggest to me a Dremel-type tool rather then a stamp.  Being a (Chinese??) fake could it even have been Laser etched???

 

BaZZa.

[Shamsy]

Hi Bazza,

These models are far too rare. The Chinese have never attempted to make a copy. Across the many thousands of NCOs made you'll find a whole variety of serial number stamps. Some are incredibly deep, others shallow. Some are wonky, some dead straight. Some evenly applied, some only half struck. Some overstrikes, some that appear to be struck with two different numbers. The standard NCOs have no real standards! It regularly makes people question good swords based on the misconception that any variation on the one or two they have held must mean a fake. Truth is there are barely any fakes that aren't glaringly obvious.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Bruce

How you get the wood liner out?

 

Trystan

[Bruce Pennington]

Trystan,

Remove the screw that holds the saya throat and that end piece comes off. Then simply turn the saya upside down and shake or lightly tap and the liner will slide out.

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[BANGBANGSAN]

Trystan,

Remove the screw that holds the saya throat and that end piece comes off. Then simply turn the saya upside down and shake or lightly tap and the liner will slide out.

Bruce

Thanks!

Trystan