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Nagoya Type 95 Ver 3 Woohoo!


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#1 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 03:15 AM

Just got my Nagoya Type 95 version 3 today! Matching numbers: 134112, with Nagoya stamp on blade and one seppa. Someone in the past has tried to repaint the saya, but I'll attack that with some acetone.

The nakago is really odd and appears to have been bent. There are hammer marks on the nakago mune. At first I thought it might have been damaged and a new end attached, but there is no observable seem, and the rough file marks seem to cover the bend unmolested. The ana have been widened to account for the bend.

Peculiar, but then I enjoy the odd-balls! (takes one to know one, eh?!)

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#2 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 03:57 AM

While I don't get the draw, I certainly can appreciate the passion! I've been very impressed with how you've taken to the military side of the house and even though you're still relatively new to the forum, you've been providing a ton of info and I've learned a lot from reading your posts. Cheers on the new acquisition Bruce!
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#3 Shamsy

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 04:26 AM

Nice to have the set complete isn't it :D. You won't find many of these floating around so best to grab when you can!
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Steve
Collecting Type 95 NCO swords

#4 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 04:58 AM

Thanks, Joe, very kind of you!

Steve - yes! I'll have to collage some pics of my complete set and post. I'll have to decide which direction to take my hobby now. Admittedly, I don't have a COMPLETE set of Late war 95's, just a single representative. I also don't have a notable smith gendaito. So, I'll have to stew on it for a bit until something pops up.

#5 IJASWORDS

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 06:00 AM

Hi Bruce. Really happy for you and love your passion!!! And yes, you are always one of the first to help with identification issues, much appreciated. I may have one of its relatives, photo of number and stamp attached. Hang onto your NCO's everyone, I reckon these will be the collectable swords of the future!! Neil.

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#6 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:35 AM

Neil,

Can you post a pic of the kissaki end of the bo-hi on your gunto? I've never handled a Nagoya 95 and this being my first I was a little worried about the shape of mine. It's rounded vs the Kokura/Tokyo Arsenal blades that the end of the bo-hi follows the shape of the kissaki.

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#7 IJASWORDS

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 09:11 AM

Hi Bruce, my blade is untouched and pretty rough compared to yours. Hope this helps, Neil.

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#8 ROKUJURO

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 03:23 PM

......Hang onto your NCOs everyone, I reckon these will be the collectable swords of the future!

Neil,

I am afraid there is no hope that industrially made items will turn to be collectibles of real value in the future unless you expand it to a time when our civilization is long gone, and those swords only remain in very small numbers.   


Regards,

Jean C.

#9 Stephen

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 03:31 PM

Never say Never Jean, use to pick them up for 50-100 at gun shows, days of the past!


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Stephen C.
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#10 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 04:25 PM

Hi Bruce, my blade is untouched and pretty rough compared to yours. Hope this helps, Neil.


Thanks Neil, it appears the Nagoya style bo-hi ends more rounded unlike the Kokura/Tokyo blades. The full length of it (bo-hi) is not as precisely cut, and the kissaki is more squarish. Good to know when trying to spot fakes and reproductions.

#11 ROKUJURO

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 05:52 PM

I know, Stephen, I have seen them many times, and at that time, I bought nice old blades in GUNTO KOSHIRAE for ridiculously small sums. I think, modern militaria will always have their ups and downs depending on temporary hypes, but generally their prices are more dictated by scarcity.

A genuine NIHONTO always had a very high value, even when it was newly made. Most if not all of them are unique and cannot be replaced by a similar one, which is quite different in comparison with militaria.. 


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Regards,

Jean C.

#12 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:43 PM

A genuine NIHONTO always had a very high value, even when it was newly made. Most if not all of them are unique and cannot be replaced by a similar one, which is quite different in comparison with militaria..


Good point Jean. I think the difference lies in that some of us are military/WWII fans and collectors vs someone who is an art sword collector. While we are both swords fans, we collect for different reasons. For me, the WWII follower, and gunto fan, the price isn't relevant, although I'd LOVE to get these cheaper! ;)
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#13 Reddawn27

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:55 PM

Nice one Bruce!!!! I have a Tokyo stamped one on Layaway right now with a seller. I can't wait! I too share your love of guntos !!
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#14 IJASWORDS

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 10:42 PM

Hi Jean, firstly as a reasonably new participant to NMB, I want to thank the person that had the guts to include the section, MILITARY SWORDS OF Japan. I am sure at the time it must have ruffled the feathers of a few traditionalists.

Whilst many are "industrially made", they are still "Japanese" swords, and made for a purpose as I guess NIHONTO also were in their time.

People have differing interests and perceptions of value and collectability, a few of us here tend to value and appreciate our GUNTOS.

On the value front, NCO's have doubled even trebled in value over the past five years. Stephens comment is correct. Never say never.

All that said, I also appreciate my NIHONTO (some papered) for their beauty and hand made individuality.

I don't think the NCO is a poor mans NIHONTO, I think it is another branch of collection and appreciation. Neil.  


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#15 jeep44

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 10:58 PM

I bought all my NCOs back when they could be found at just about any gun show or militaria show for about $200. I really can't recall the last time I saw one at a show for any price. In my area it would be tough for someone just starting out to gather a good collection of these any more, and the prices I see on ebay just leave me shaking my head.

As for the machine-made aspect of them, they were still carried into combat by Japanese soldiers, and as such, deserve respect. I value mine as much as any other Japanese sword I have, manufactured or Traditionally made.


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#16 Shamsy

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 01:42 AM

The side latch are too rare to have any fakes out there Bruce, so don't have any doubts over any you see that are not quite conforming (unless it is completely off of course!). I've seen them with shallow blade numbers like Neils and the deeply stamped blade numbers like your own. There are a couple of different tones of paint, though the light brown is usual for the handle.

 

((P.S Colour blind so don't trust my judgement))


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Steve
Collecting Type 95 NCO swords

#17 mauser99

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:28 PM

nice grab.  I just picked up my second.  These are sooooo much harder to find than the wood grip variant.  The wood grip variant seems almost common to me now.. Im sure a lot has to do with them more than likely just sitting in a finished state when the war ended and were never used and were there for the taking after the war.  Like lots of other late war booty. 


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#18 mauser99

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 10:05 PM

Here Is the one I just bought.

 

This one is in just over the 200k range which seems correct as this is just before the wood grip type show up.

They made these only a short time.

 

I thought only Nagoya made these ?     The serial ranges are quite a bit apart ?

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#19 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:03 AM

Here Is the one I just bought.
 
This one is in just over the 200k range which seems correct as this is just before the wood grip type show up.
They made these only a short time.
 
I thought only Nagoya made these ?     The serial ranges are quite a bit apart ?


As far as I know, Nagoya was the only one making them with the side latch. That is definitely the highest serial number I've seen on an aluminum handled gunto.

#20 Stegel

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:16 AM

Nice pick up Bruce, and you too Wayne!
It's always satisfying to see a bit more completeness to your collection, isn't it!

Neil, i think it was Brian, the Admin man who had the idea to run a militaria sub forum trial here. I think its picked up quite a bit and is getting to be a good sword related militaria forum.




Here's a bit of info for some of you guy's who may be interested...

This particular Pattern of Type 95 sword with side latch was made only by the Nagoya Arsenal, firstly under the Kokura Administration and then under it's own Administration.

Less of these were made than the Copper handled versions (Pattern 1), but with collectors being what they are, and not all being the same, i suppose it is most desirable to have the very first pattern- hence the huge prices the Copper Handled variants generally command.

This 4th pattern was introduced when the serial number range was at the 132k mark. An Administrative re-organisation occured which removed Kokura as the Supervisory Arsenal overlooking the type 95 production, and instead, Self Administration was granted to each Arsenal directly involved with the production. This meant that Tokyo 1st and Nagoya were directly responsible for the production and supervision of their own product.

Logically, the Fuchi stampings also changed at this time, the stacked four cannon ball logo of the Kokura Arsenal was dropped and the Star with centre circle was used by Tokyo 1st while Nagoya used the circular 'sea creatures' logo.
Most Importantly, the Serial number ranges were also divided with Nagoya beginning production in the 200k range, while Tokyo 1st continued within the current 100k range. Jinsen was allocated the 300k range.

The Nagoya Arsenal (in the 132k range under Kokura) stopped the production of the previous Pattern 3 (Aluminium handle with top lock latch/steel tsuba) and moved it to the 200k range. This was later followed by the side lock version, resulting in this pattern being found in both ranges (100k and 200k).

It was eventually replaced by the wooden handled variant not long after.


I hope this came out right, and explains a bit,  so as to answer any thoughts/questions/observations you guy's may have had on these particular versions.

Cheers


 


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Stegel


#21 IJASWORDS

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:34 AM

Thanks Brian for initiating the MILITARY SWORD forum, much appreciated!
Stegel, great info on the NCOvar#4.Interesting about the rarity. My sword number is 132423, I guess that makes it early production?
Do you know specifically how many of this variant were manufactured? Neil.
Neil

#22 IJASWORDS

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:38 AM

Sorry Var #3.


Neil

#23 Stegel

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 09:11 AM

 My sword number is 132423, I guess that makes it early production?
Do you know specifically how many of this variant were manufactured? Neil.

 

In the overall picture, yes your sword is early production. The earliest serial number i've seen is 130800.

In this 100k range i estimate about 1800 swords with side latch were made, another 1200 in the 200k range.

So all up only about 3000 were produced.

 

Edit- perhaps i should explain the 1800 figure.

The range is 130800 - 135000, but the pattern 3 (top lock latches) were also being produced in this range. About  44% were the side lock variants, and i'm working with a sample of 100 swords in this range.


Stegel


#24 Stegel

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 09:36 AM

Sorry Neil,

I find it easier to think of them as Patterns, i've been doing it this way for years.

I didn't mean to cause confusion.

 

There were 8 Patterns produced on this gunto model.

 

Pattern 1 is the copper handled version with brass tsuba and top lock latch.                   steel scabbard

Pattern 2 is the aluminium  handled version with brass tsuba and top lock latch.            steel scabbard  (ver 1 in Dawsons)

Pattern 3 is the aluminium  handled version with steel tsuba and top lock latch.             steel scabbard  (ver 2 in Dawsons)

Pattern 4 is the aluminium  handled version with steel tsuba and side lock latch.            steel scabbard  (ver 3 in Dawsons)

Pattern 5 is the wooden  handled version with steel tsuba and side lock latch.                steel scabbard  (ver 1 in Dawsons late war)

Pattern 6 is the wooden  handled version with steel tsuba and side lock latch.                wooden scab    (ver 2 in Dawsons late war)

Pattern 7 is the wooden carved handled version with steel tsuba and side lock latch.     wooden scab    (ver 3 in Dawsons late war)

Pattern 8 is the wooden ito wrap handled version with steel tsuba and side lock latch.   wooden scab    (ver 4 in Dawsons late war)


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Stegel


#25 Shamsy

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 11:43 AM

As always thanks for the insight into the pattern 4 Stegel. Great to hear from you on my favorite subject and interesting info since the poor side latch are such an under appreciate pattern.
Steve
Collecting Type 95 NCO swords

#26 IJASWORDS

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 01:26 PM

Hi Stegel, I would rather use your terminology, much easier to follow. Dragged some of mine out of the cupboard for a photo. Hope I got them in the correct order. To be honest took years to get them all, and only completed the set a month ago. I found pattern 6 pretty difficult to find. I would now not part with them for the world. I have heard on good authority that there is a white painted ALPINE version, that would be great to find.

And these are only the HEAD LINE patterns, when you add different arsenals, leather covered, chromed versions....they add up.  

Any way thanks to all the contributors on this topic over the past days, very informative. Neil.

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#27 mauser99

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:27 PM

I haven't looked @ my other yet but,  I was looking @ Bruce's example and that one has the heavy struck deep wide serial font.

IJA's example as a lesser struck narrower font.

 

Mine in the 200k range has the typical narrow lightly struck font.

 

I thought the ones with the Deep struck broad font were made at a different plant than the poorly struck ones ???

 

 

seems odd the later blade has the deeper bolder font ?

 

132423    typical narrow font.

 

134112  DEEP  WIDE FONT.

 

201861   narrow thin font. staggered hand applied #'s    This follows the range and just 2k below the earliest wood grip type Nco's.


Wayne W.

#28 mauser99

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:29 PM

Nice pick up Bruce, and you too Wayne!
It's always satisfying to see a bit more completeness to your collection, isn't it!

Neil, i think it was Brian, the Admin man who had the idea to run a militaria sub forum trial here. I think its picked up quite a bit and is getting to be a good sword related militaria forum.




Here's a bit of info for some of you guy's who may be interested...

This particular Pattern of Type 95 sword with side latch was made only by the Nagoya Arsenal, firstly under the Kokura Administration and then under it's own Administration.

Less of these were made than the Copper handled versions (Pattern 1), but with collectors being what they are, and not all being the same, i suppose it is most desirable to have the very first pattern- hence the huge prices the Copper Handled variants generally command.

This 4th pattern was introduced when the serial number range was at the 132k mark. An Administrative re-organisation occured which removed Kokura as the Supervisory Arsenal overlooking the type 95 production, and instead, Self Administration was granted to each Arsenal directly involved with the production. This meant that Tokyo 1st and Nagoya were directly responsible for the production and supervision of their own product.

Logically, the Fuchi stampings also changed at this time, the stacked four cannon ball logo of the Kokura Arsenal was dropped and the Star with centre circle was used by Tokyo 1st while Nagoya used the circular 'sea creatures' logo.
Most Importantly, the Serial number ranges were also divided with Nagoya beginning production in the 200k range, while Tokyo 1st continued within the current 100k range. Jinsen was allocated the 300k range.

The Nagoya Arsenal (in the 132k range under Kokura) stopped the production of the previous Pattern 3 (Aluminium handle with top lock latch/steel tsuba) and moved it to the 200k range. This was later followed by the side lock version, resulting in this pattern being found in both ranges (100k and 200k).

It was eventually replaced by the wooden handled variant not long after.


I hope this came out right, and explains a bit,  so as to answer any thoughts/questions/observations you guy's may have had on these particular versions.

Cheers


 

Now that I invested the time to sit and digest what you wrote it makes more sense what Im asking.   As you can see where the change was made possibly?  As the different factories had different font number stamps . Bruce's Id say was made in a different location than the other two.  Type set proves it.   What do others think of this ?  If the inspection stamps weren't so small they may also differ.  

 

 

I can also see without knowing all this info by looking at the huge range of serial # differences  One could think they made a hell of a lot more of these than they did !


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Wayne W.

#29 Brian

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:37 PM

Excellent info Stegel. If you ever decide to write a short article on what you just posted, or compile it into one post, I would gladly sticky it, or add it to the articles section.


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#30 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:16 PM

Now that I invested the time to sit and digest what you wrote it makes more sense what Im asking.   As you can see where the change was made possibly?  As the different factories had different font number stamps . Bruce's Id say was made in a different location than the other two.  Type set proves it.   What do others think of this ?  If the inspection stamps weren't so small they may also differ.  
 
 
I can also see without knowing all this info by looking at the huge range of serial # differences  One could think they made a hell of a lot more of these than they did !


Wayne,

Interesting point. I once read that the city of Nagoya had 17 sword factories surrounding it. I know the Seki operation had many more than that. So, in once sense, it's surprising that there isn't more variation in the font than there is. But I guess it depends upon where, and by whom, the stamping was done.




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