Ray Singer Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 From your photo of the kissaki, looking at what appears to be a perfectly straight ko-shinogi, it already seems that you are changing the geometry. The boshi appears quite thin as is, and will likely not sustain much foundation work if corrections are needed. I second the comments that it would be best to avoid any further "polishing" work and wait until such a time when you are ready to have a professional restore the sword. Having mako-ake done is a relatively modest cost. Not sure if you are based out of Australia, but if so you have Andrew Ickeringill in Melbourne who is a fully training togishi (having completed his full apprenticeship in Japan). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 Adding to what Ray said, the proportions of this kissaki look off to me, suggesting this sword's next polish needs foundation polish correction. Combine that with the thin boshi and this sword may very well be on its last polish. In which case it had best be placed in the hands of a polisher with outstanding foundation technique and skills for any work. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 The tip of the kissaki is broken. It definitely needs re-shaping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chango Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Julian, listen to these guys and don't do your own work on that blade... I understand the temptation (having fought it off myself) but even though it's probably not made by one of the top 10 geatest Japenese smiths ever it still looks like a very nice Koto piece with plenty of art-sword potential. The best course of action is patience and stabilization until you can get it to a qualified togishi. A few months of regular wiping and oiling with a HQ clear oil (like sewing machine oil) will do a lot for clarifying blade details in a non-invasive way too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_ozzy_samurai Posted January 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Ok guys,firstly thank you Ray i will look into that guy,i had no idea anyone in Australia was qualified, Thanks for the comments,I knew the response would be like this,can i ask who here has polished a blade before?i can tell you now the very little pressure i use and the shear strength of this blade,nothing has come off,to polish with finger stones takes little pressure,to scratch and grind into blade then use force i guess? i see on WW2 blades the black junk getting built up as im doing hadori which is obviously tiny steel particals,on this blade it does nothing it eats up my little finger stones and does very little to blade,nothing comes off, to polish this blade properly would take a month or more easy its beyond strong i couldnt remove steel if i tried, the kissaki lines are as the blade is shaped its impossible to move it either way as it wouldnt go with shape so i cant be to wrong there as i actually went over the original lines that where somewhat faded, and yes the tiny top section of tip is broken,cheer's Let's just say i left for a another few weeks and posted images after some serious time is put in had it looking sweet,if i didnt say i polished it the blade would have got good comments like it did last week before you guys knew i done some work on it,its still the same blade as last week,in the same polish?just under different lights looks different,but now all of a sudden the blade has flaws all over, if anyone of you have done a final polish then you no its just like applying make up to the blade,you can near polish it right off with mag or metal polish on a rag and start again the process again,its the foundation polish work which i wont do that can re shape the blades geometry, how is it so hard to believe that a beer drinking dirtbike riding aussie can polish Japanese swords? it is somewhat of an art but its not rocket science? and guys thats 2 to 3 days max work,it will take many many weeks Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Julian I am sorry you can attempt to explain and justify your actions as much as you like. being a beer drinking dirt bike riding Aussie has nothing to do with the concerns expressed and suggesting it does is both wrong and an extremely weak defence. Basic line is you shouldn't do it. From your response it appears you will chose not to listen and carry on because despite the years of experience behind the comments made by everyone who has posted you know best. I can only hope that for as long as you hold these ideas nothing worthwhile ever falls in to your hands. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg F Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 You are not applying something like make up, pollishing is removing metal! No offense but one ozzy to another i just dont think you have enough respect for Japanese blades and the artists that make them from beginning to final stage. I really hope you see the light some day Julian. Greg Ps. I strongly back Rays comments about Andrew Ickeringill also, we are very lucky to have him in Australia. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chango Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Ok guys,firstly thank you Ray i will look into that guy,i had no idea anyone in Australia was qualified, Thanks for the comments,I knew the response would be like this,can i ask who here has polished a blade before?i can tell you now the very little pressure i use and the shear strength of this blade,nothing has come off,to polish with finger stones takes little pressure,to scratch and grind into blade then use force i guess? i see on WW2 blades the black junk getting built up as im doing hadori which is obviously tiny steel particals,on this blade it does nothing it eats up my little finger stones and does very little to blade,nothing comes off, to polish this blade properly would take a month or more easy its beyond strong i couldnt remove steel if i tried, the kissaki lines are as the blade is shaped its impossible to move it either way as it wouldnt go with shape so i cant be to wrong there as i actually went over the original lines that where somewhat faded, and yes the tiny top section of tip is broken,cheer's Let's just say i left for a another few weeks and posted images after some serious time is put in had it looking sweet,if i didnt say i polished it the blade would have got good comments like it did last week before you guys knew i done some work on it,its still the same blade as last week,in the same polish?just under different lights looks different,but now all of a sudden the blade has flaws all over, if anyone of you have done a final polish then you no its just like applying make up to the blade,you can near polish it right off with mag or metal polish on a rag and start again the process again,its the foundation polish work which i wont do that can re shape the blades geometry, how is it so hard to believe that a beer drinking dirtbike riding aussie can polish Japanese swords? it is somewhat of an art but its not rocket science? and guys thats 2 to 3 days max work,it will take many many weeks Julian This isn't an elitist argument and polishing a Nihonto is NOT just a matter of making steel shiny... the work of a qualified sword polisher is a highly technical and demanding pursuit requiring advanced knowledge and techniques to be done right. Certain important features of the blade can only be brought out with certain stones, skills and techniques that you just don't know. It takes a 10 YEAR apprenticeship to become a certified togishi in Japan... the difference between you and a togishi is not your race or language... it's a $*&!-load of highly specialized training and experience. So why does it matter? Nihonto were weapons of war in the past but today the majority of Nihonto value is in their artistic merits and Nihonto collectors tend to be a studied, discerning and demanding bunch. If you ever decide to sell that sword down the line it will be instantly obvious that someone who didn't know what they were doing shined the blade up and that it isn't up to the standards of the industry. A potential buyer will have to figure the costs, risks and time associated with getting the sword re-polished to the high standards of the "Nihonto world"... basically where the sword was when it first fell into your hands. Meanwhile, you will have put dozens of hours into it for nothing and all you will get for your effort is a less valuable and less desirable sword that will be worth less than it might have been, not to mention that twice as much metal will need to be removed from a blade that may be 500-700 years old, hastening the sword's final demise in the future. If that's not a good reason to back off, I don't know what is. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Julian, You knew this would be the reaction, so hopefully you won't take offense, and take it as standard advice that we are going to give to everyone.Why not just give Andrew a call or email, and ask him if he would take a look at it? Can't cost much for an opinion, and you are SOOOOO lucky to have a fully qualified guy in Oz. Brian 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Fox Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 Julian Note, that Admin hopes you won't take offence, to being told that your applying stones to a Nihonto blade, is not acceptable. I can assure you, that in the past there were those, who would not have offered such an olive branch. They would in fact, have accused you of giving offence, by admitting such an act to us, who regard ourselves as custodians of Nihonto blades. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_ozzy_samurai Posted January 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Thanks Brian and others i have taken all comments on board,this was initally purchased as a project blade as i had never done a old blade,it was said its not Yoshifusa so i figured i was in the clear and it takes a slightly different process to WW2 blades and i was curious to try it out, i cannot afford to spend 10 years of my life without pay learning,im not offering or selling or operating as a polisher as that is totally dis respectful to those who have put in the time,but i figured if i wanted to send a blade to Andrew or anyone to be seen or viewed i atleast want to have a hamon so some detail can be seen,i have to ask tho as i can 100% assure you no lines or anything has been changed,i dont think some guys on here understand the final polish process,without sounding rude i dont understand if no steel is removed how can it damage the blade? as it still the exact same shape just has a hamon and some detail now i dont understand? Final polish can be polished off as we see many times over so many shiny blades with little or no hamon or kissaki detail,it takes the right stones and process to bring that detail back,i have done a WW2 kanenori that was already polished with mag or metal polish to a ugly mirrror finish all over,i have not used any man made chemicals or power tools and crap on any blade,i have dozens of different types of density Hazuya and Jizuya,i do have larger Hato and Jito stones too, i make make my own tojiri and nugui,this may shock some of you but i have done a few WW2 blades for some collectors that have been collecting longer then i have been alive,just for practice and they seem to be happy with final product and they do know there swords,there is already a dozen or more swords floating around this planet that will have my polish on them for the next few hundred years,anyways all comments taken on board,Nihonto blades are not my thing and this blade would take to long to polish to its former glory,thanks guys Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FletchSan Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Hi Julian, Andrew can open a small window to show the workmanship. I've had a few windows done by him and have a sword with him now for a window. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 It takes a 10 YEAR apprenticeship to become a certified togishi in Japan... Actually, there is no such thing as a "certified" togishi: usually your teacher decides when you are ready to become independent. The myth of the ten years apprenticeship is due to the traditional training of the Honami school, where much of that time was spent cleaning the workshop, just looking over the shoulder of the master, and doing kantei. The Fujishiro apprenticeship always lasted about 5 years due to their different teaching methods. And things even changed within the Honami tradition, almost no student studies for 10 years anymore. Andrew Ickeringill, who's mentioned here, studied for 6 years, and I consider him indeed "fully qualified". 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chango Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Actually, there is no such thing as a "certified" togishi: usually your teacher decides when you are ready to become independent. The myth of the ten years apprenticeship is due to the traditional training of the Honami school, where much of that time was spent cleaning the workshop, just looking over the shoulder of the master, and doing kantei. The Fujishiro apprenticeship always lasted about 5 years due to their different teaching methods. And things even changed within the Honami tradition, almost no student studies for 10 years anymore. Andrew Ickeringill, who's mentioned here, studied for 6 years, and I consider him indeed "fully qualified". Guess I've just been mythbusted! Good to know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 ALL polishing is a process of abrasion, and steel IS being removed, albeit in minute quantities in final stages. Buying stones and "having a go" is not the most prudent, conservative approach. It takes a lot of study to understand sword design and construction from different periods and schools, and how the different grades of stones affect various structures. Then there is the aesthetic appearance to consider, which will vary by period and school. There is a lot to know, much of which is not immediately apparent. Thus, polishing should not be undertaken by amateurs; this has been the position of the NMB since its inception. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Fox Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Julian Your "I don't understand", is exactly why you are doing what you do. Where you to be making WW2 mass produced blades shiny, ok. I can only hope you take your own advice "Nihonto blades are not my thing". And confine your 'skills' to the military supply of metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Tenold Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 how is it so hard to believe that a beer drinking dirtbike riding aussie can polish Japanese swords? Well crikey mate! With such a fantastic curriculum vitae as this, what could possibly go wrong? You've been offered some wise and prudent advice from folks here, many of whom have been collecting for decades, have fine swords in their collections, studied under some of the best guidance on the planet, seen magnificent works in hand, yet *still* find the humility to admit that they don't know all the answers because they understand they'll never even know all the questions. Just because they don't tell you what you want to hear, doesn't make them wrong, or you right. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Gentlemen, As one of the main protagansists in this can I suggest it is time to draw a line under the subject? The advice given has been very clear, the crirticsm equally clear without being over the top. I think Julian has taken what has been said on board, if not then I doubt further comment will change his mind. However continued criticism might start to appear like bullying and reflect negatively on participants for anyone coming to the board for the first time. The points have been clearly made should we now leave it at that? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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