Box of Tsuba contents

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Piers, I can't say much about this latest tsuba. Looks alright, curious about the iron though. What really made me post was, 'Jidai ga sakanoboru' . Does this mean the 'times of going back'?, as in 'retro' where old style is in fashion and copied? Otherwise this jidai is unknown to me. Thank you, John

 

It's something I've been asking Japanese people about this last week or two as most dictionaries don't mention it. They use it so casually and quickly it's difficult to pin them down. This set of words (Noboru/Sagaru) is the way they perceive history. It's like a river. If something 'Noboru' (goes up) or 'Jidai ga noboru' (The age is quite high) then it's further up the river and is more ancient, and as you come down the river towards where we are now it 'Sagaru' or 'Jidai ga sagaru' (the age drops) and becomes more recent or younger. I checked this concept with various people including a Nihonto shinsa expert and found it was 'commonsense'.

 

In the West some of us see history going left to right, others right to left, some back to front, others up to down and some down to up! How about you, John? :lol:

 

PS What makes you curious about the iron?

[John A Stuart]

Hi Piers, Very interesting. A colloquialism I had not heard before and common-sense indeed. Me, history is pushing me down the same old river, so, it really applies. As to the tsuba, I wonder how its weight matches its robust look and might be indicative of when it was forged. The tomoe have that Eastern thing where the piece is almost balanced but not quite. I can't think of better words to describe it, the opposite of repetitive, I guess. John

[Bugyotsuji]

When you say weight, John, do you mean the feeling of weight in the hand, or the actual weight measured on a scale, relative to its size? This one I broke my own rules and bought unpapered over the internet. It was smaller than I'd hoped, but it is certainly quite heavy. I will be showing it to my Tsuba collector friend later today, so hope to get some direct feedback from him. Any little hint or comment nudges the story in a new and interesting direction. Even if it's not what I thought, I may learn a new lesson in discernment.

 

It is slightly unbalanced, isn't it, and there is a section missing for the edge of an imaginary hitsu-ana.

[Bugyotsuji]

Quick question about "gold". When the NBTHK paperwork says 金 Kin, (as in Kin Fukurin) does it actually mean gold, or does Kin cover anything yellow and shiny, like brass?

 

As an adjunct to this question, do they test for gold, or is lack of oxidation/discolouration a good enough indication for them?

 

Does anyone know what purity of gold was used in Mid-Edo? Was it mixed with silver, like the coinage? If it was mixed, was this for cost reasons, or for reasons of strength, or beauty, or what? in advance.

[Bugyotsuji]

As is often the case, while I was waiting for help here, I went out and talked to some people and managed to get a part answer elsewhere, so I will post that here.

 

Pure gold for the edge band of a tsuba, the fukurin, would cause problems with permanency of fit, apparently. The lightness in colour indicates addition of silver. In order to strengthen the gold, pure silver was added to it, until the gold was about 16 ct. (For reference, 18 ct is 75% gold and 25% silver, so the gold content would therefore probably be just less than than 75%.)

 

Next question! This tsuba has a very fine curved line sukashi in the iron on either side. Holding it to the light I noticed something caught in the cut. The only thing I could work into the gap was a sheet of paper, but that wasn't strong enough to shift the blockage. I tried a cutter blade and a pin, but they were both too thick to go into the gap. As I was messing around it began to dawn on me that to cut such a line would have required magical skill with a...a...a... what? A series of super fine fretsaw blades? I even considered buying a blade and snapping off the eye at one end in order to slip it through...

 

(PS It turned out to be a small ball of rust which I picked away at gradually with the tip of the pin from all sides until it was gone.)

[John A Stuart]

Hi Piers, The queston of gold purity struck me as interesting as I collect in that field as well and can shed some light upon this. There was debasement of coinage depending on the Bakufu's need for revenue. ie. Genbun era 1736-1818 Ichibugin 65.3%, Tempo era 1832-1858 Nishugin 29.8%, Ansei era 1854-1860 Nibugin 20.9%, Manen era 1860-1867 Nishugin 22.9%. I notice that as the purity decreases the deep rich gold colour becomes a bright yellow gold colour. Both are attractive colours. I would imagine coin to be the most obtainable form of gold and would bet that most pieces made by the artists would reflect the gold content of the coin available at that moment. This would not apply to the Goto and their associates, I think, since they were in charge of the mint. BTW, If you run into a Mexican silver dollar (8 Reales) 1854-1860 counterstamped with Japanese characters it is worth more than it's weight in gold. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Piers, The queston of gold purity struck me as interesting as I collect in that field as well and can shed some light upon this. There was debasement of coinage depending on the Bakufu's need for revenue. ie. Genbun era 1736-1818 Ichibugin 65.3%, Tempo era 1832-1858 Nishugin 29.8%, Ansei era 1854-1860 Nibugin 20.9%, Manen era 1860-1867 Nishugin 22.9%. I notice that as the purity decreases the deep rich gold colour becomes a bright yellow gold colour. Both are attractive colours. I would imagine coin to be the most obtainable form of gold and would bet that most pieces made by the artists would reflect the gold content of the coin available at that moment. This would not apply to the Goto and their associates, I think, since they were in charge of the mint. BTW, If you run into a Mexican silver dollar (8 Reales) 1854-1860 counterstamped with Japanese characters it is worth more than it's weight in gold. John

 

Hi John, thanks for this extra information. My original informant above is a contemporary Habaki maker who is also one of our local NBTKHK teachers, although he has not seen the tsuba itself yet.

 

I have a few of the coins you mention, well, if those oblong 'bu' or 'boo' bits can be called coins, and it's quite extraordinary how low the gold contents goes, testing the edges of the gold colour/color. I will keep an eye out for the coin you mention. One coin that I have been looking for but which is fairly expensive, is a Bo-eki Ichi-en, trade dollar, based on the Mexican silver dollar, which I believe start around 900 dollars, which may have been the follow-up to the coin you mention. I heard that the One Japanese yen, the US dollar, and the Mexican silver dollar, all had the same-ish value back then and was the standard that traders used in early Yokohama.

 

There are lots of fake One-yen siver coins which have flooded the market and reduced the price of the lovely real silver ones to the point where you can snap them up for a song, (depending somewhat upon the year) as long as you get the real McCoy. Great presents for people. 7-8,000 yen each a few years ago and now dealers are hard pressed to get 4,000 yen. Most people are too afraid to buy as they generally can't tell the difference.

[Bugyotsuji]

Well it was hard getting a clear shot of the Fukurin. Perhaps the autofocus was getting its knickers in a twist.

 

The Inome Sukashi tsuba is papered to Bushu 武州 and is 8.3 x 8.3 cm. And not quite as thick as I was expecting.

[Bugyotsuji]

Apart from 'Bushu' and the description of the Tsuba itself, there is no more information about it.

 

Can anyone add or subtract anything to the body of knowledge, please? (Such as rough age?) The tsuba looks to be in layers in the photos above, but under 10x magnification I can't see clear demarcation lines any more. It looks solid iron. Should I trust my eyes or the photo? Could this tsuba be copper internally, however, and could the Fukurin have been added to hide the striations? Or shouldn't I be asking such questions?

 

Seoul Airport, Korea

[Bugyotsuji]

Recently saw a Nanban-tetsu tsuba on sale in a net auction and the very smooth quality of the iron looked rather similar to the one I posted above. My certificate makes no mention of Namban-tetsu, but does anyone think it is possible that it is?

 

This is the Myochin tsuba I bought a couple of days ago. I was about to erase one pic which I took by mistake with a flash, when I noticed some colouring/coloring in the steel that I hadn't seen before. Covered in urushi? Not huge at 7.4 x 7.1 cm. Thickness at Mimi and throughout 4.5mm?

[Bugyotsuji]

What have I done?

 

Two further tsuba have sold themselves to me. One is a copper Naval tsuba with what was described as a bullet mark to the Mimi. The other is a large Edo copy (?) in copper/brass of a Muromachi Toko/Katchu-shi tsuba, the seller said, with pine needle designs. Why do I keep buying tsuba? Am I ill?

What does 焼き手腐らし技法 mean?

[Bungo]

" One is a copper Naval tsuba with what was described as a bullet mark to the Mimi. "

 

looks like a cold sore to me................ is that a " repair " with filler ?

 

I once had a ww2 gunto with clearly a bullet wound to the top part of the nakago and it doesn't look anything close to the example of the second pic.

 

milt

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Guys,

There are some good images of bullet damage to the tsuba, fuchi and nakago of a Gunto on Japanese Sword.com

 

http://www.japanesesword.com/

 

Item 1106gunto6 in the section sword $1500 - $3000

 

Cheers

 

 

Malcolm

[docliss]

Dear Piers

 

Recently saw a Nanban-tetsu tsuba on sale in a net auction and the very smooth quality of the iron looked rather similar to the one I posted above. My certificate makes no mention of Namban-tetsu, but does anyone think it is possible that it is?

 

You have hit upon a pet subject here and, at the risk of boring some members with repetition, I shall attempt to answer your question. The Dutch began to import iron into Japan, probably with its origins in China, Korea and India, around 1600 and during the C17 it was a consistent import into Japan both by Dutch and English traders. In spite of the abundance of local iron deposits, Japan produced only 5,000 tons of iron in 1882 and imported an average of 11,000 tons per annum over the preceding ten years. Unadulterated local iron was probably only used for sword blades (even this was not invariable), and pure Namban iron was probably only obtainable from the smelting of railway lines from Manchuria. Thus from the beginning of the C17, because of the constant reusability of iron, that obtained by the smelting of local iron-bearing sand must have become progressively and irretrievably admixed with this foreign iron

 

The answer to your question depends upon what you mean by ‘Namban iron’. If you mean any iron containing a variable amount of this imported variety, I suggest that most tsuba can be considered as being made of Namban iron. Although this imported iron varied considerably from the locally produced iron, both in its chemical make up — a high phosphorus content of 4-10 times that of the local iron is common — and in its physical properties, I know of no way of detecting its presence apart from by chemical analysis; certainly not by its appearance.

 

Regards, John L.

[Bugyotsuji]

" One is a copper Naval tsuba with what was described as a bullet mark to the Mimi. "

 

looks like a cold sore to me................ is that a " repair " with filler ?

 

I once had a ww2 gunto with clearly a bullet wound to the top part of the nakago and it doesn't look anything close to the example of the second pic.

 

milt

 

It doesn't look like a repair with filler. If so, it would have been much more professionally done, wouldn't you agree? It's rough to the touch. The site seems to go right through to the other side, causing a little bulge or distortion, and it's quite a thick tsuba. The green leaching (?) you can see in the photo is not apparent to the naked eye. Bullet? No? Possibly it could have been hit by a piece of hot flying metal debris?

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks, John, re the Namban iron content above. Thinking about the way that Japanese produce domestic 'wine' by mixing in large quantities of French wine, and how milk is largely made up from powder shipped in from Australia, with domestic milk blended in, your scenario sounds quite plausible. No boredom here. I for one, enjoyed reading it.

[Bugyotsuji]

Was visiting someone's house yesterday for wild boar stew, and he came up with a surprising remark. He said that the received wisdom is that Nobu-ie did not put human figures on his tsuba. Before writing what he said next, may I ask if everyone agrees with this so far?

[docliss]

Dear Piers

 

While in principle eschewing any generalisations made about tsuba, I cannot personally recall seeing any verified Nobuiye tsuba with figure(s). Can any member correct this observation?

 

John L.

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for the observations, John.

 

He produced a round lacquer box with a very thick black tsuba inside, took it out and passed it around. Nobu-ie. "This tsuba would get Juyo without a doubt", he said. There were two figures on it. "Just because the experts have never seen one doesn't mean that they don't exist", he said, launching into a description of having passed it around some tsuba Kanteishi and observed their expressions. "This may be the only one in the world", he said. "I have certainly never seen another." (This chap is quite a famous Nihonto carver, and says there are some works of art he has created in his life which he has never repeated.)

 

He asked me how much I thought it might be worth. Tongue in cheek, I said, "I'll give you ten million yen for it!" "Here, you can have it," he replied, extending his arm....

[Bazza]

A couple of the Ura

Piers,

If at all possible I would appreciate a good, very hi-rez pic of both sides of your Namban tsuba, the one with gilt and beaded rim. You can send them direct to me at warlord@iinet.net.au or post them here in a thumbnail (as I have just learnt to do - thanks again Brian) linked to a hi-rez ImageShack file. Here are links to my tsuba that has an old Tokubetsu Kicho (green) paper:

 

 

Let's hope I've got it right this time...

 

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Barry, that was a tall order for me! Well, here goes. Fingers crossed this works! Done my best with the camera. Never taken hi res pics before. The linking is experimental too. (I like your Namban tsuba, BTW. How big is it?)

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

The Momoyama wheel Tsuba on p.2 of this thread has been 'refurbished'. Someone (a previous owner) had taken a file to it and zealously removed the rust, but this rough & ready removal process had also taken off most of the patina and much of the iron Ji and the Shinchu Zougan. The marks of the file could still be seen here and there.

 

A collector friend asked me if I would mind lending it to him as the sight of it offended his sensibilities. A week later and here it is.

 

First Impressions:

1. The remaining Zougan looks brighter.

2. The iron looks darker.

3. The Tsuba feels very soft and smooth to the touch.

 

In the phone call of Sunday he said the rust needed to grow a bit more so could I wait a few more days? Today he called to say that it was ready. I don't think that the Shinchu is actually any brighter, but the loss of the bright shine of the exposed iron has increased the contrast between the dark rust patina Ji and the remaining Shinchu Zougan. It looks a lot better, IMHO. He smoothed off the surface file marks so that now it also feels a lot better between the fingers.

[Bugyotsuji]

I think I might be going slightly mad. Tsuba by tsuba, the box has been filling up. What am I going to, or better still what is my wife going to do with things I have collected over the months and years?

 

A friend told me today that there are three kinds of collector, viz:

 

A) Those who buy something and then shut themselves in a closet with a light and magnifying glass and gloat over it.

B) Those who buy and get pleasure from showing everyone what they have bought.

C) Those who find pleasure in buying but as soon as they get home become bored, so they then find pleasure in selling it.

 

Am I B) then?

 

Anyway, as a kind of catch up, here are some of the recent additions to the box. The Nanako silver on copper Wakizashi tsuba with the chip I found a week ago. The rest assembled themselves today. One of them was a really exciting surprise for me, for personal reasons; I will post it over in this week's Edo Period corner.

 

PS Shots of just one side, out of concern for bandwidth. Any reverses upon request.

[Stephen]

if i had your pocket money for a month i could afford a trip to Nippon. :lol:

[Bugyotsuji]

if i had your pocket money for a month i could afford a trip to Nippon. :lol:

 

Well, what you save on the hotel by staying here (wife being amenable) you could use at the flea markets! Besides, antique prices are depressed nowadays, as long as you don't count JPY in US dollars....

[WalterS]

Anyway, as a kind of catch up, here are some of the recent additions to the box. The Nanako silver on copper Wakizashi tsuba with the chip I found a week ago. The rest assembled themselves today. One of them was a really exciting surprise for me, for personal reasons; I will post it over in this week's Edo Period corner.

 

PS Shots of just one side, out of concern for bandwidth. Any reverses upon request.

Hi, that first one looks superficially like one I just posted up... I'm a complete newbie. How would you describe that tsuba?

[Bugyotsuji]

Anyway, as a kind of catch up, here are ... request.

Hi, that first one looks superficially like one I just posted up... I'm a complete newbie. How would you describe that tsuba?

 

 

Hi ... Walter? I am a perennial newbie, posting and hoping for comments myself. I have shown this tsuba to a few people but no information was forthcoming. One artisan said the work is not too complicated, but it would be too much effort to make something like this today, and with the price of silver hardly worth the effort. The copper tsuba interior is covered without in silver on both sides and then a fukurin is added internally and externally to cover the seams. It is worked in Nanako. That's about it. Sorry!

[WalterS]

Anyway, as a kind of catch up, here are ... request.

Hi, that first one looks superficially like one I just posted up... I'm a complete newbie. How would you describe that tsuba?

 

 

Hi ... Walter? I am a perennial newbie, posting and hoping for comments myself. I have shown this tsuba to a few people but no information was forthcoming. One artisan said the work is not too complicated, but it would be too much effort to make something like this today, and with the price of silver hardly worth the effort. The copper tsuba interior is covered without in silver on both sides and then a fukurin is added internally and externally to cover the seams. It is worked in Nanako. That's about it. Sorry!

 

Yep, Walter. Thanks for the info. I didn't realize it was a "constructed" piece, I thought that was just light reflecting off it. The description makes me appreciate even more.

[Bugyotsuji]

Wasn't there a thread near here somewhere mentioning Tsuba for Naginata/Nagamaki? Well, I have what was described as a Nagamaki Tsuba, and was going to post it up there, but despite running a search I've completely lost the plot!