Jump to content


Photo

Mass Produced Sukesada?

katana

  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#31 Ken-Hawaii

Ken-Hawaii

    Tokubetsu Juyo

  • Members
  • 4,253 posts
  • LocationKaneohe, Hawaii, USA

Posted 01 August 2016 - 05:08 AM

Another Marius!! Welcome! Very nice first purchase, although I admit that I also have a tendency to buy Bizen blades.

 

I've noticed that most of the longer signatures & dates are associated with Shinshinto blades, which of course this one is not, but does anyone recall a Muromachi blade with a mei this long?

 

Ken

 



#32 Alex A

Alex A

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 2,287 posts

Posted 01 August 2016 - 06:51 AM

Briefly, im aware of "general" blade shape changes over time and that uchigatana where auxiliary weapons, but by 1530 did the many thousands of katate-uchi, not to mention early tachi etc etc suddenly disappear?, brings me back to my earlier point about over -categorizing. Way back then, many could not afford to be picky, and used what they had, or what they were given. Many using family heirlooms, then handing them down, even up to the late Edo period, and so on, the reason we still see so many today.


Alex.

#33 Jacques D.

Jacques D.

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 2,526 posts

Posted 01 August 2016 - 10:59 AM

Chumon-uchi (custom orders) bear a naga mei with second name such Bizen no kuni ju Osafune Yosozaemon no jo Sukesada saku. Swords without this second mei are if not kazu-uchi mono average swords.

 

Ken @

 

Naga mei and nengo are the rule on Bizen swords since Muromachi (Oei) era.



#34 Alex A

Alex A

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 2,287 posts

Posted 01 August 2016 - 11:25 AM

Hi Jacques, sure ive read somewhere on this forum that there is a Juyo rated Sukesada sword with a basic short mei.


Alex.

#35 Guido Schiller

Guido Schiller

    Metsuke

  • Members
  • 3,052 posts
  • LocationTōkyō

Posted 01 August 2016 - 12:23 PM

Looks like the question has been answered by smarter people than me ...

 

Well, if they are so smart, why do they mistranslate "katate-uchi", show regular katana/uchigatana as examples thereof, and inserted a few other mistakes here and there? You know, not everything you read on the Internet is true ...

Attached Thumbnails

  • gandhi.jpg


#36 Jacques D.

Jacques D.

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 2,526 posts

Posted 01 August 2016 - 02:32 PM

Hi Jacques, sure ive read somewhere on this forum that there is a Juyo rated Sukesada sword with a basic short mei.

 

Apologies for being not clear. Yes, at this time, there were niji mei without nengo  but in case of naga mei (discuted here) there is always a nengo. 

 

Naga mei + nengo are not specific to Shinshinto. 



#37 Chango

Chango

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 140 posts

Posted 01 August 2016 - 04:37 PM

Well, if they are so smart, why do they mistranslate "katate-uchi", show regular katana/uchigatana as examples thereof, and inserted a few other mistakes here and there? You know, not everything you read on the Internet is true ...

 

Guess I should have found a better link! :unsure:

 

Here's a better one with real examples: http://www.sho-shin.com/katteuchi.html


Jason A

#38 Alex A

Alex A

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 2,287 posts

Posted 01 August 2016 - 06:53 PM

Looks like the question has been answered by smarter people than me but here's a good quick summary:http://www.thesamura...ta_te_uchi.html

Bottom line, a katate-uchi essentially is an O-wakizashi (or barely past the arbitrary 2 shaku limit for a daito) 150 years or so before the definition of a wakizashi was formally enshrined in law by the Tokugawa Shogunate and decades before wearing a daisho was standard. It was intended as a "quick-draw" secondary offensive weapon for unmounted warriors but by the time of the Sengoku Jidai, trends and tactics favored the longer (2-handed ) katana over the katate-uchi. I think the so-called kazu uchi mono mass-produced blades were the "rank and file" swords of the Sengoku Jidai and they were like the OP's sword, only of much poorer quality.

This is just my own random guessing but this is also around the decades when metal plate armor showed up on the battlefield to counter matchlock guns; maybe 1-handed swords just weren't up to the task? Swords were of lessor importance on the battlefield anyway so it could have just been dictated byfashion.

Ultimately you'd have to define "katate uchi" by their short nagasa, sakisori, short nakago and having been made in that 1450-1530s time window, not to mention being mounted as one and not a wak/katana (just like how a tachi is only a tachi if you don't mount and wear it upside-down :) ) The concept didn't die though... instead it evolved into the shinogi zukri wakizashi as part of the daisho, so you could have the benefits of both a shorter 1-handed and longer 2-handed sword on your belt.

 

Hi Jason, I have a bit more time now, no fun trying sound sensible at 5am :laughing:

 

You say a "katate-uchi" is essentially an O-wakizashi, hmm, I have one here with a 59cm nagasa, just as easy to call it a short katana ;-)

 

As for the 1450,s to 1530,s window, not too sure, this is a good read  http://www.nihonto.c...rtsuebizen.html

I did say we over-catergorize stuff, but hey ho, here we go, take a look at no7 running into the Azuchi Momoyama 1573-1600 http://www.yamakawad...es in shape.pdf

 

Ive read on Aoi a few times (as an example), that no kazuuchimono where produced Eisho.

 

As mentioned before, look at the sword quality before the mei, look for quality original bo-hi in these swords.

 

As you say, katate uchi were no match for firearms (introduced 1542), they where an auxiliary weapon, but as an Ashigaru, you would be glad to have one, just in case your matchlock got wet or something :glee:


Alex.

#39 Marius G

Marius G

    Chu Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 27 posts
  • LocationNetherlands

Posted 01 August 2016 - 08:00 PM

Very interesting and educating comments! Thank you very much for helping me!

 

While I have absolutely no specific knowledge about when Katate-uchi swords appeared and disappeared, saying that for example beginning with 1530 Katate-uchi fell out of favour sounds like saying that beginning with 1970 propeller airplanes fell out of favour... but it doesn't mean that they abruptly stopped being produced and used... as we can see propeller planes being produced and used even today. In my understanding... :dunno:


Marius G

#40 Alex A

Alex A

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 2,287 posts

Posted 01 August 2016 - 08:32 PM

Very interesting and educating comments! Thank you very much for helping me!

 

While I have absolutely no specific knowledge about when Katate-uchi swords appeared and disappeared, saying that for example beginning with 1530 Katate-uchi fell out of favour sounds like saying that beginning with 1970 propeller airplanes fell out of favour... but it doesn't mean that they abruptly stopped being produced and used... as we can see propeller planes being produced and used even today. ;-)

 

I think there is a big grey area. Reading starter books and looking at illustrations blade changes can get you thinking that at a certain time there was an amnesty where every sword owner had to hand in the last sword trend sword and then issued with the new trend sword. :glee:

 

Something I have been interested in http://www.militaria...n-shinto-times/

 

Ironically, started when I bought a late muromachi katate-uchigatana in Edo koshirae ;-)

 

Got me a wondering, I suppose that's where the interest lies in this hobby, what i don't know (everything).


  • SteveM and ggil like this
Alex.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: katana

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq