Help Wanted, Please, Ww Ii Army Gunto, Saipan "oddball"?

[flemming7x64]

Greetings from Denmark.

 

Priviledged to have a WW II Gunto on its way from the States. Though in need of choji-oil, regardless of the overall condition, I like it. Furthermore its provenance. It was taken on Saipan, June 1944, by: 

 

27^th Infantry Division, 45^th Infantry Brigade, 106th Machine Gun Battalion

WWII US Army Staff SGT William Harris of Egg Harbor Township

Captured while in the mountains of Mount Tapochau, Saipan

Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal, Purple Heart Medal, Bronze Star Medal

Military Order of Purple Heart 

 

Now, this sword scabbard clearly states "Sword of Seki", which I´m familiar with, BUT, my question:

1) This blade doesn´t seem to bear a stamp nor signature, 2) The sword definetely and clearly reveals a hamon. Machine made/an officer´s privately ordered, handforged sword? Can anyone kindly elaborate on this sword, please? Highly appreciated. Thanks out there.

[vajo]

Tsuka and Saya didn't look unique for me. 

The parts look like they did not fit together. The habaki is to small. Die sarute peg doesn't fit. Maybe the sword is built from different parts?

[Stephen]

The culinary stamp is usually found on seki swords as you know, seldom is found a gendaito, more along the lines of mass produced  blades, saya may not be org to blade

[flemming7x64]

The culinary stamp is usually found on seki swords as you know, seldom is found a gendaito, more along the lines of mass produced  blades, it may not be org to it.

Thanks appreciate it. Same thought crossed my mind. But what about the blade itself, can you help on anything, it does have a hamon. What should I make of it, please? A 1930´ies blade, but traditionally forged, "disguised in a later "Seki"-scabbard or.....???

[flemming7x64]

The culinary stamp is usually found on seki swords as you know, seldom is found a gendaito, more along the lines of mass produced  blades, saya may not be org to blade

Thanks, appreciate it. Any thoughts on the blade itself, please?

[vajo]

Can you show a picture from the nakago without the habaki from both sides?

[Stephen]

What does it look like under habaki

[flemming7x64]

Can you show a picture from the nakago without the habaki from both sides?

Will try and fix by contacting seller in the States, a good friend of me and of the deceased gentleman vet, that brought it home from Saipan after being wounded. The sword hasn´t arrived by shipping yet..

[vajo]

Thats a lot of story for this sword

I hope it was very cheap?

[flemming7x64]

Thats a lot of story for this sword

I hope it was very cheap?

Fairly, but still expensive. The good thing is that provenance is a 100% bullet proof. I´ve also got a Japanese Arisaka bayonet, the gentleman vet picked up at Tarawa! One thing is having a WW II item, another to be able to tell its story - that´s to me the "real" value. Historical documentation, never forgotten vet, etc...

[flemming7x64]

Tsuka and Saya didn't look unique for me. 

The parts look like they did not fit together. The habaki is to small. Die sarute peg doesn't fit. Maybe the sword is built from different parts?

Yes, but perhaps the Japanese in question was firstly in China(which I believe), then several years of Island Hopping in the South Pacific, difficult to repair/maintain swords...

[flemming7x64]

Tsuka and Saya didn't look unique for me. 

The parts look like they did not fit together. The habaki is to small. Die sarute peg doesn't fit. Maybe the sword is built from different parts?

Yes, I think you are probably right, and if the case this sword was not intentionally forged to wear WW II Gunto mountings. This could - alongside the hamon, perhaps date it further back in time?

[Shamsy]

But congratulations anyway as the saya with the Seki sticker is considered rare. It's not in great condition but clearly original. Are all the mounts low quality? The Seki saya tends to come with low quality fittings as these were produced towards the end of the war. Saya would have had a combat cover to at some time. These were cheap and flimsy so few survive. Unsigned blades with oil temper and painted kanji on the nakago are the usual for the model.

 

Again, all depends on saya belonging to the blade.

 

History is good and provenance Important, but without documentation should always be taken with a grain of salt.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

That is a really ugly short tang on the sword . I don't think a trained swordsmith would produce anything like that. You should get it out of your thoughts that there is even a possibility that this is a hand forged piece by a recognised smith . Steve is right it is highly likely that it is a late war sword with an oil quenched blade of low quality. Ian brooks

[flemming7x64]

But congratulations anyway as the saya with the Seki sticker is considered rare. It's not in great condition but clearly original. Are all the mounts low quality? The Seki saya tends to come with low quality fittings as these were produced towards the end of the war. Saya would have had a combat cover to at some time. These were cheap and flimsy so few survive. Unsigned blades with oil temper and painted kanji on the nakago are the usual for the model.

 

Again, all depends on saya belonging to the blade.

 

History is good and provenance Important, but without documentation should always be taken with a grain of salt.

Thanks, Jo Saku, very appreciated. As for provenance, cannot be disputed with all due respect. My American friend, a former secretary of House of The Representatives personally formed a veteran´s organization/chapter in a large US city. The gentleman vet in question, now passsed, was a close friend of his. He personally took the sword in the Battle of Saipan - even told exact location. Many years later, the vet gave the sword to my friend including its (hi-)story). All documented, included photographs, etc.. May I kindly ask if you are able to read the painted kanji, please? Thanks again, - Flemming

[flemming7x64]

But congratulations anyway as the saya with the Seki sticker is considered rare. It's not in great condition but clearly original. Are all the mounts low quality? The Seki saya tends to come with low quality fittings as these were produced towards the end of the war. Saya would have had a combat cover to at some time. These were cheap and flimsy so few survive. Unsigned blades with oil temper and painted kanji on the nakago are the usual for the model.

 

Again, all depends on saya belonging to the blade.

 

History is good and provenance Important, but without documentation should always be taken with a grain of salt.

Thanks, appreciate your effort in trying to help out, - Flemming

[Bruce Pennington]

Flemming,

 

I, like several others are puzzled by the unusually small nakago (tang). Would you do us a favor when the gunto arrives, of taking the kisaki off and getting some good pics posted of that area where the tang meets the blade?

 

The sword clearly has a hamon. I'm not expert on that aspect of Japanese swords, so hopefully, we can get the real pros to evaluate when you get it home and take more pics. Don't be concerned about the skeptical comments. Some folks are offset when they see something unusual. I've seen enough to know that, while there IS a standard these go by, there are always exceptions. Their concern is that the fakes are so prevelant, it is a constanct battle identifying them and weeding them out. Yours does not look like a fake.

[Stephen]

type o he means Habaki....never take off the kissaki...

[flemming7x64]

Flemming,

 

I, like several others are puzzled by the unusually small nakago (tang). Would you do us a favor when the gunto arrives, of taking the kisaki off and getting some good pics posted of that area where the tang meets the blade?

 

The sword clearly has a hamon. I'm not expert on that aspect of Japanese swords, so hopefully, we can get the real pros to evaluate when you get it home and take more pics. Don't be concerned about the skeptical comments. Some folks are offset when they see something unusual. I've seen enough to know that, while there IS a standard these go by, there are always exceptions. Their concern is that the fakes are so prevelant, it is a constanct battle identifying them and weeding them out. Yours does not look like a fake.

Hello, Bruce, and thanks for your kind help. Yes, I´m just as puzzled as you are as to this sword. As far goes my limited knowledge on Nihonto in general, I do own a couple of "genuine" wakizashi's. Once also had a Naval WW II that I regretfully sold.Have read and studied both types a lot, but this one sort of stands out, like something "in between". I have asked my US friend if he managed to take photographes of the exact spot you mention, but he didn´t. This sword is being shipped writing, so I will have to wait. Two things can be confirmed - 1) the sword has got a hamon, 2) If you´ve read above provenance it is by the book, first hand. Will return once the sword arrives. Must fetch firstly in Sweden, since Post Denmark doesn´t allow weapons to be shipped in and out of the country        Lots of thanks for now, Flemming

[vajo]

I read that post and ask myself what is so special in that sword to discuss? I think Flemming, it is the story that you tell us. But i learned that i buy a sword not a story.

But it is fun to read and discuss.

[flemming7x64]

I read that post and ask myself what is so special in that sword to discuss? I think Flemming, it is the story that you tell us. But i learned that i buy a sword not a story.

But it is fun to read and discuss.

Thanks, I learned they are one and the same.. - Regards, Flemming

[Shamsy]

So since I'm finding this quite interesting I've gotten around to something I've been meaning to do for 3 years now. The mekugi got jammed in my late war sword in transit, so I was never able to look at the nakago, though I knew it had painted kanji as the late war Seki do. So having drilled the peg out carefully, I've taken the tsuka off for a look and photos. Disappointingly not the same markings as yours. Type 44 also regularly have painted kanji, as do the stainless naval gunto. It's pretty common in military swords. I don't think it really tells us much about the blade.

 

I've still posted these in case you're interested in looking. I'll be interested in seeing more photos of what you've found. As has been repeated oft; as soon as you think you know all the Japanese patterns along comes a surprise.

[Shamsy]

Couldn't get this to attach above...

[flemming7x64]

So since I'm finding this quite interesting I've gotten around to something I've been meaning to do for 3 years now. The mekugi got jammed in my late war sword in transit, so I was never able to look at the nakago, though I knew it had painted kanji as the late war Seki do. So having drilled the peg out carefully, I've taken the tsuka off for a look and photos. Disappointingly not the same markings as yours. Type 44 also regularly have painted kanji, as do the stainless naval gunto. It's pretty common in military swords. I don't think it really tells us much about the blade.

 

I've still posted these in case you're interested in looking. I'll be interested in seeing more photos of what you've found. As has been repeated oft; as soon as you think you know all the Japanese patterns along comes a surprise.

Thanks again, your comments much appreciated. I expect to receive the sword within a couple of weeks. Firstly I´ll carefully remove habaki(which seems stuck? and definitely not handfitted for this sword) and hopefully take some nice shots of the whole lot in the hope that this seemingly - (?)a little uncommon - military sword will reveal what it really IS... - Flemming. By the way, VERY nice sword shown above  

[Shamsy]

I've found a few habaki get stuck with dry grease, oil or rust buildups. A good way to carefully remove it is using half a cloths peg with the wedge against the habaki, flat side against the blade (any bit of untreated wood in a wedge shape will do, peg is just easy and available). Then gently tap with a small wooden hammer. Will pop off easily. A little oil helps.

[flemming7x64]

I've found a few habaki get stuck with dry grease, oil or rust buildups. A good way to carefully remove it is using half a cloths peg with the wedge against the habaki, flat side against the blade (any bit of untreated wood in a wedge shape will do, peg is just easy and available). Then gently tap with a small wooden hammer. Will pop off easily. A little oil helps.

[Stephen]

Good advice, one more step if needed is to alternate sides  not to bind.

[Johnny Barracuda]

About the hamon, you can have one on an oil-quenched sword.