Jump to content


Photo

First Japanese Blade And Restoration Proyect

tanto restoration ebay polishing

  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 dominnimod

dominnimod

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 228 posts
  • LocationSpain

Posted 27 March 2016 - 08:58 PM

A couple weeks ago i received my first blade,a meiji mumei bare tanto in deplorable conditions with a lot of active rust.First i made a shirasaya(very weird looking :-? )Then ,after some cleaning i managed to remove the red rust and 'partially' make it shine.The problem is that it has some big black stains along the blade that doesn't come off(Under light they look red/dark brown)Any ideas of how to remove them?

Thanks

 

-Jose

IMG_20160327_203307.jpg IMG_20160327_203612.jpg IMG_20160327_203632.jpg IMG_20160313_121934.jpg

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_20160327_203540.jpg

<p>(☞゚∀゚)☞ Jose L. Ubaldo

#2 Fuuten

Fuuten

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 597 posts
  • LocationThe Netherlands

Posted 27 March 2016 - 09:18 PM

First suggestion would be, try to find out if its worth doing anything. Second if the answer to #1 is yes, then let it be done professionally.

 

Then again i don't think this is worth much (after anyway).


Axel R.

 

Semper ubi sub ubi


#3 dominnimod

dominnimod

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 228 posts
  • LocationSpain

Posted 27 March 2016 - 09:36 PM

First suggestion would be, try to find out if its worth doing anything. Second if the answer to #1 is yes, then let it be done professionally.

 

Then again i don't think this is worth much (after anyway).

Thats's why is a restoration project, where i invest my time to try to end with a good looking piece from a blade who most people would call junk and would't bother doing anything.


<p>(☞゚∀゚)☞ Jose L. Ubaldo

#4 ROKUJURO

ROKUJURO

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,423 posts
  • LocationIn a deep valley

Posted 27 March 2016 - 09:53 PM

Josh,

in case this blade is longer than 30.3 cm, it is a KO-WAKIZASHI in SHINOGI-ZUKURI form. 

Restoring such a blade requires knowledge; it is not so important to polish it until it is bright but to restore the shape and the lines in the first place. For that you have to know what you have!

Don't try restoration at home, it will cause more damage than good. Keep it dry and oil it very lightly from time to time so that no oil gets into the SHIRA-SAYA.

Don't clean the NAKAGO other than with a dry cloth.   


  • e_v likes this
Regards,

Jean C.

#5 vajo

vajo

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 822 posts
  • LocationGermany / Bavaria

Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:09 PM

Someone told me no polish is better than a bad polish.

Chris S. 

久利守斗夫明


#6 dominnimod

dominnimod

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 228 posts
  • LocationSpain

Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:11 PM

Josh,

in case this blade is longer than 30.3 cm, it is a KO-WAKIZASHI in SHINOGI-ZUKURI form. 

Restoring such a blade requires knowledge; it is not so important to polish it until it is bright but to restore the shape and the lines in the first place. For that you have to know what you have!

Don't try restoration at home, it will cause more damage than good. Keep it dry and oil it very lightly from time to time so that no oil gets into the SHIRA-SAYA.

Don't clean the NAKAGO other than with a dry cloth.   

No,is much smaller than what it seems  :-o ,the nagasa is actually like 15 or 16 cm,but yes,its has a shinogi zukuri shape and that's one of the main reasons why i bought it,it looks like a micro-katana  :glee:


<p>(☞゚∀゚)☞ Jose L. Ubaldo

#7 Jean

Jean

    Daimyo

  • Moderators
  • 7,115 posts
  • LocationFrance

Posted 27 March 2016 - 11:30 PM

Josh,

Check your books or the web and tell us how many tanto micro-katana you have seen...:)

Look at the mekugi ana and tell us is nothing strikes you

I hope you don't pay too much for it, but surely it is the case taking into account the pictures
Jean L.
Soshin Gimei

#8 dominnimod

dominnimod

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 228 posts
  • LocationSpain

Posted 27 March 2016 - 11:40 PM

Josh,

Check your books or the web and tell us how many tanto micro-katana you have seen... :)

Look at the mekugi ana and tell us is nothing strikes you

I hope you don't pay too much for it, but surely it is the case taking into account the pictures

Yep, i know its quite unusual,but i have seem some similar shapes from ww2 tantos(i found this one for example(same mekugi ana):

 

 http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557

 

Also, the blade is diferentially hardened,it has hamon, and also file marks on the tang under the patina.It even has kizu like blister and shinae.

Looking at it in hand seems Japanese 100%,should i upload more photos?


<p>(☞゚∀゚)☞ Jose L. Ubaldo

#9 Jean

Jean

    Daimyo

  • Moderators
  • 7,115 posts
  • LocationFrance

Posted 28 March 2016 - 01:37 AM

Don't waste your time restoring it, these daggers are not worth it. Cheap ones not even made of tamahagane. Now instead of quoting e-bay, search  the web and look at tanto sugata. 

 

http://www.aoijapan....nesesword/tanto

 

You won't see any of these swords papered. A sword made in Japan is not necessarily a Nihonto.


Jean L.
Soshin Gimei

#10 dominnimod

dominnimod

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 228 posts
  • LocationSpain

Posted 28 March 2016 - 04:27 PM

Don't waste your time restoring it, these daggers are not worth it. Cheap ones not even made of tamahagane. Now instead of quoting e-bay, search  the web and look at tanto sugata. 

 

http://www.aoijapan....nesesword/tanto

 

You won't see any of these swords papered. A sword made in Japan is not necessarily a Nihonto.

Ah ok, i thought nihonto could refer to all traditionally made Japanese blade,but i guess this one is not. ಠ_ಥ

Now i will be out for a week,but when i return i think i will acid etch the blade to see the hamon. Even if it's not a quality blade,its still a nice tanto for 60$ ,right?  :-?


<p>(☞゚∀゚)☞ Jose L. Ubaldo

#11 Brian

Brian

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 11,813 posts
  • LocationSouth Africa

Posted 28 March 2016 - 05:18 PM

Jean, I could be wrong, but I suspect this might be Nihonto, with a hamon. It looks like the one Roy L. had. Incorrectly called "Boy's Day Swords" and even smaller. I forget what their purpose was. But some are not terribly made, and have nakago like that.

I would advise against restoring it yourself. Get someone to polish a window and see if it is indeed forged.

 

Brian


  • peterd likes this

- Admin -


#12 ggil

ggil

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 396 posts
  • LocationCA

Posted 28 March 2016 - 08:33 PM

Josh,

Not qualified to give advice on damaging antiques (sorry for the ramblings before)

People around here don't want to even think about home polishing, because they have seen too many examples of how wonderful art has been damaged. Home polishing simply means disgracing what they have come to love and honor.

I hope this helps,

-Grant

Grant G.


#13 Jean

Jean

    Daimyo

  • Moderators
  • 7,115 posts
  • LocationFrance

Posted 28 March 2016 - 09:30 PM

Maybe Brian, but hamon is only an indication of a tempered blade, it does not indicate if the blade is made of tamahagane or not thus a Nihonto (cf mantetsu blades) What is the most curious is the location of the mekugi ana. I would like to see of this sword could paper and if not why?

Josh,

Is it a nice tanto for 60$? No, it is not the question. The question is : is it a nice tanto for me? If yes, it is perfect. Being nice is not a matter of price but a question of taste. Not unlike wives :)
Jean L.
Soshin Gimei

#14 Ed Harbulak

Ed Harbulak

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 100 posts

Posted 28 March 2016 - 10:25 PM

Josh,

Your blade is extremely short and the nakago is going to be very difficult to hold if you do decide to do some restoration work yourself. I'd suggest making a wooden handle to attach to the tang so you have something to hold onto. That may also help keep you from cutting yourself. Personally, the blade reminds me of the broken tip from a longer blade that was converted to what it is now. For $60 you certainly didn't over spend and it might make a nice project. BUT, doing an even half way decent restoration is going to be difficult since my guess is you don't have the proper equipment or knowledge. Before you do anything other than oil the blade, you might want to consider purchasing the book entitled "The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing" for $28.35 from Amazon just to get an idea of what genuine sword polishing entails. Good luck, my guess is you will need it. Remember "haste makes waste", so take your time because a proper polishing job is going to take lots of time.

Ed 


  • Stephen and Jean like this
Ed Harbulak

#15 Dr Fox

Dr Fox

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,029 posts
  • LocationGoodwick, Wales, United Kingdom

Posted 28 March 2016 - 11:02 PM

I see the word 'restore' being in frequent use in this posting. Restore to 'what'?.

Flat abrasive, sandpaper, acid etch and home polishing?

I have seen folks shot, for a lot less than this on here.


Denis

_______________
Dr Fox.

#16 drbvac

drbvac

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,357 posts
  • LocationPrince Edward Island Canada

Posted 28 March 2016 - 11:29 PM

Agreed - you can't etch a rough rusted blade and you can not polish nihonto with sandpaper - all it will do is remove rust and leave a sscratched metal surface even if you use 3000 grit wet paper - it may be very smooth but not even close to polished.

It will just look a different sort of bad - not like stone polished steel. You possibly could get a glassy reflective surface like you have on jewellery with a polishing compound but why I am even going on is beyond me - the results will be not what you think - the best will look like stainless steel polished with steel wool.

Either leave it alone or do whatever you want knowing in all liklihood it is not going to be worth any more or less anyway - like that nun that restored the frescoe in the church - remember that - I still laugh everytime I even think about it.

She was more pleased with the result than most art historians and at least the robe is all brown.

images (1).jpeg
  • Darcy and ggil like this
Can't retire - spent most of my money on women, liquor, german cars and Nihonto -- all the rest - I wasted.
_____________________
Dr. Brian Barrett,
PEI Canada

#17 dominnimod

dominnimod

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 228 posts
  • LocationSpain

Posted 28 March 2016 - 11:31 PM

Maybe Brian, but hamon is only an indication of a tempered blade, it does not indicate if the blade is made of tamahagane or not thus a Nihonto (cf mantetsu blades) What is the most curious is the location of the mekugi ana. I would like to see of this sword could paper and if not why?

Josh,

Is it a nice tanto for 60$? No, it is not the question. The question is : is it a nice tanto for me? If yes, it is perfect. Being nice is not a matter of price but a question of taste. Not unlike wives :)

The tang actually has different shape in both faces 

IMG_20160327_203324.jpg IMG_20160327_203405.jpg

And yeah,i really like the tanto,the shape overall ,but i noticed it haven't been sharpened by the lower part and neither much in the upper part of the blade,thous being tempered,

Maybe this blade was done for a Japanese doll or something like that?


<p>(☞゚∀゚)☞ Jose L. Ubaldo

#18 dominnimod

dominnimod

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 228 posts
  • LocationSpain

Posted 28 March 2016 - 11:49 PM

Agreed - you can't etch a rough rusted blade and you can not polish nihonto with sandpaper - all it will do is remove rust and leave a sscratched metal surface even if you use 3000 grit wet paper - it may be very smooth but not even close to polished.

It will just look a different sort of bad - not like stone polished steel. You possibly could get a glassy reflective surface like you have on jewellery with a polishing compound but why I am even going on is beyond me - the results will be not what you think - the best will look like stainless steel polished with steel wool.

Either leave it alone or do whatever you want knowing in all liklihood it is not going to be worth any more or less anyway - like that nun that restored the frescoe in the church - remember that - I still laugh everytime I even think about it.

She was more pleased with the result than most art historians and at least the robe is all brown.

attachicon.gifimages (1).jpeg

xDD, that was hilarious,but my point is,if the blade is worth so little that no one is gonna bother restoring,i could at least give a try,right?


<p>(☞゚∀゚)☞ Jose L. Ubaldo

#19 Ken-Hawaii

Ken-Hawaii

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 2,482 posts
  • LocationKaneohe, Hawaii, USA

Posted 29 March 2016 - 07:07 AM

Josh, the point that everyone is trying to make is that this forum is dedicated to the preservation of Japanese blades!!  So please don't ask here if you should try to do anything to it.

 

Ken

 



#20 Brian

Brian

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 11,813 posts
  • LocationSouth Africa

Posted 29 March 2016 - 09:42 AM

xDD, that was hilarious,but my point is,if the blade is worth so little that no one is gonna bother restoring,i could at least give a try,right?

Wrong. Price does not condone home restoration. And how do you know no-one will bother restoring it? Someone will do a window, and if there is hamon and hada, then any decent polisher will polish it. If they tell you there is no hamon or hada...then go for it. Otherwise, just oil it and keep it for now. I think the "doll" idea is possible.


- Admin -


#21 e_v

e_v

    Chu Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 48 posts

Posted 29 March 2016 - 04:19 PM

I try to add my half a cent (2 cents is probably too much :) ): I remember well a moment, in the first phases of my nihonto infatuation, when I wasn't sure of how much time/effort/money I would invest, but I really wanted to find a way to put my hands on a Japanese blade.

The so-called "project blades" seemed like an interesting shortcut: cheap, in poor condition, but original! I could imagine the story: a humble blade, worthless for everyone, but potentially a great experience for me: if only I could remove a little rust, just a little touch-up, without doing damage...

Then I learned a little more and realised that the problem with my fantasy did reside in that "without doing any damage": if you're not trained properly, whatever you do, you will ruin something unique. I agree with Ed: my suggestion is to grab a copy  of "The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing". If you are here, you'll enjoy the book and, along the way, you'll understand that you don't really want to try things on your blade.

At that point you'll have a few options:

- enjoy the blade as it is

- ask a trained polisher to open a window

If the book will increase your desire of working with wet stones instead of sedating it, you could also look for someone willing to train you: in that case "project blades" would probably become your training ground. But this is only a confirmation that for now you should not touch the blade: even the humblest of the blades could become a training tool for someone who's investing an important part of his life learning old skills. I think this kind of story sounds way better than "Damn! I did my best but now it looks like a weird butter knife..." ;)


  • ROKUJURO and ggil like this
Enrico Viola

#22 Jean

Jean

    Daimyo

  • Moderators
  • 7,115 posts
  • LocationFrance

Posted 29 March 2016 - 06:06 PM

I am afraid that the cost of the restoration will far exceed the blade value :sad:


  • Darcy and drbvac like this
Jean L.
Soshin Gimei

#23 dominnimod

dominnimod

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 228 posts
  • LocationSpain

Posted 02 April 2016 - 11:37 PM

Ok,thanks for all :) ,also,it seems like i ignored the most obvious option as Ed said,could it be a broken older wakizashi/katana/tachi  reshaped into a tanto? That would explain the shape,not being very sharpened,the weird looking nakago,tha blade having hamon and hada and the mekugi ana.

I will follow your advise and store it oiled for now.


<p>(☞゚∀゚)☞ Jose L. Ubaldo

#24 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 622 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 11 April 2016 - 10:44 PM

Remember how many guntos were cut in two after the war? I wonder if some enterprizing young men took the blades tips and made what you have? I've never heard it discussed as a practise; but such things wouldn't have records.

#25 Chango

Chango

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 132 posts

Posted 18 April 2016 - 07:39 PM

I'm a neophyte Nihonto fan; being a (now former; I sold off my last chinese abomination last year) replica sword junky and knowing almost nothing about Nihonto I bought a  "junk" sword last year with the intention of working on it myself as a hobby.

 

That sword turned out to be from a fairly high-end Kanbun era smith; the good folks of this forum turned me in the right direction, convinced me to wait until I had the $$ to do it right and now that sword is finally  going in for professional restoration very soon.

 

If I had stuck with my original plan, I would have been responsible for the destruction of an irreplaceable piece of history and now that I know more I would never have forgiven myself!

 

It's true that many swords are currently deemed worthless and/or unrestorable... but that's today, and judging an item solely by today's values is hopelessly short-sighted. Who knows, in another 100 years a rusty old Ebay blade could be museum-worthy depending on what happens in the future! After all, there aren't many "restorable" original viking swords but that doesn't make one any less valuable. Remember, many amazing, priceless and irreplaceable Nihonto were a dime a dozen in 1946; times change! Even Gunto swords are highly collectable now and have their place in history.

 

In other words, if you're feeling crafty, get a modern, non-Japanese blade to work on. Save the actual nihonto (even the bad ones) for trained experts and/or future generations. 


  • Brian, Dr Fox, e_v and 2 others like this
Jason A

#26 Greg F

Greg F

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,274 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted 19 April 2016 - 03:13 AM

Bravo Jason well done and good post. Cheers.

Greg





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: tanto, restoration, ebay, polishing

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq