Did Any Member Buy This

[lonely panet]

Hi guys, did any board member grab this little gem

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-blade-Red-Signature-Mint-WWII-Japanese-Army-Officer-Samurai-SWORD-WW2/222014014788?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D33876%26meid%3Da265cd7417024077beb612e1e19e87f5%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D24%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D391377804862&autorefresh=true

[Stephen]

Wanted too but just dropped some cash on a Hiromasa Gendaito.

[mauser99]

Saw it and was tempted.  Id say its a special little sword ?

[lonely panet]

yep,

if original, is very rare, to find a crew shin gunto with custom metal saya, normally they just made them out of wood, with a leather cover.

 

some one just got a bargin, I would go so far as to say there evan RARER the Gen's grade Kyu gunto.

[Stephen]

hummm   Ham, if seen a lotttt of gunto with steel saya with wood liner,,,not sure why you think its that rare.

[Dave R]

 I think the "rare" bit is that it is a short non standard blade with a made to measure steel saya. How rare is another matter, Ohmura shows a couple of such on his site.  http://ohmura-study.net/761.html. With what I have seen elsewhere I would debate these being crew gunto or even "ancestral" blades though. Have a look here for some idea as to what these might be,... http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/deflating-another-myth-type-3-army-officer-s-sword-expanded-version-584796/ read the whole article to see what I mean.

[lonely panet]

WOW, Im shocked with the reaction abit,

 

first of all the idea of a short gunto to fit into cockpits is so obvious, you cant argue with the common  sense approach of space saving.

also the numbers they were made in is "unknown", but we can all say with confidence, the majority of Japanese planes were shot down with kit, so making pilots/crew gunto's rare, due to the lack that survived. so Stephan please re-check the length of the sword sold to no confuse it with a wakizashi in normal shin gunto mounts.

 

crew/pilots gunto are normally 2/3rds shorter, but identiacally made. the blade sold in this case is secondary, the mounts are far and above the blade because they are hard to find. unless your in geographic oddity and they are all in your location, they are rare in my location.

 

average shin gunto 39.37 inches

crew/pilots gunto sold 31 inches

my crew gunto 27.97 inches

 

I quickly scanned over the war relics page, and didn't find any relation to the subject at all.

 

so the word RARE has different means to every one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-Japanese-Officer-antique-Samurai-Sword-Gunto-Wakizashi-Type-98-Kunishig-/321964318068?nma=true&si=HMqg8fPQGiJz0YK%252FH5DNVMC7JME%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[Kai-Gunto]

I like it.

[Dave R]

"I quickly scanned over the war relics page, and didn't find any relation to the subject at all."

 

 What I was trying to link to was the article about "so called type 3 gunto". In it there are references to problems with sword production during the War. One of the "emergency measures, Rinji 臨時", being officers allowed to use their own swords, and another the setting up of an official Military Board to buy old blades and re-purpose them as Gunto. Quote from the article... " The Military Sword Appraisal Committee formed in late 1938 as a joint program between the army and navy officer clubs, the Kaikosha and Suikosha and the Gunjinkaikan supported by the Army and Navy Ministries. The purpose was to buy up family Samurai swords that could be made into army and navy Guntos. Appraisers and affiliated dealers got together to offer you a fair price for swords you brought in." ..... This I believe would explain a lot of the non standard blades found in Shin Gunto mounts.

Looking on-line at photo's of Japanese Officers in action I saw a surprising number of shorter swords in use, and others of normal length with no attempt made to mount them in standard Shin-Gunto  Koshirae, carried into action and worn with the uniform.

Returning to the sword in question, the Koshirae and blade  are very nice indeed and the whole package definitely a desirable one! 

[Shamsy]

Dave, you are very much on track sir!

 

There seems to be some confusion about this subject. There is a difference between a wakizashi mounted for military use and a crew gunto. Wakizashi mounted are actually not uncommon. They aren't usually much shorter than a standard gunto. While they excessively get called a crew gunto by enterprising merchants, I don't think a sword should necessarily be deserving of that term unless it is closer to tanto length and at least the tsuka smaller in dimension than a regular gunto. I have a nice Kai-Gunto from a pilot and other than a standard sized tsuba, the entire sword is 'miniturised'. I spoke to Jim Dawson about the subject so I'll share that with you.

 

"Pilot swords were few and far between -- and still are... A photo of the two side by side showing the difference in handle size would be interesting. Your sword IS properly scaled, but I often see collector's pay too much for cut off gunto in shortened scabbard. The give-away is that the handles are the same size as standard gunto."

 

So there is a reasonably simple way to ascertain the difference between a crew gunto and a Wak mounted for the military use. I'm sure there will be many cries of disagreement (probably some from former 'crew' owners where money or pride is involved), but the easiest way to differentiate the pair is the tsuka. My aim is not to offend or get into an argument, this is a site for learning after all.

[Kai-Gunto]

Pilots before take off ,is seen in photographs with normal size

Also what Dave said.

[Shamsy]

Yes, bearing a crew gunto was a choice and nothing to do with regulation (which there is no debate needed regarding how lax that was). Indeed, I'm sure some traditionally minded officers no doubt thought anything less than a full length sword was insufficient.

[lonely panet]

Dave all your photos show civilan mounted swords (wakizashi) you can see the kurikata's on the saya and full tsuaka's making them pre-1934.so not gunto but rather wakizashi slighty changed for military service

 

try and forget the samurai sword or family sword stuff. its all about the koshire. 

 

a pilots shin gunto is made EXACTLY the same as a type 94/97 shin gunto, just proprtioanlly smaller, the 2 tsuka are shown for Steve

[Shamsy]

Can you confirm Hamish that the width of the tsuka is less than the standard gunto tsuka? It's hard to tell from photos, but it should be narrower. Less length and width.

[Stegel]

I'm 100% with Hamfish on this, i have a naval sword which is approx 1/3 smaller than the normal Naval issue. the handle is slightly shorter.

 

My understanding is that crew gunto's , either army or navy are miniturized versions of the standard issue.

This does not include wakizashi mounted in full length standard fittings, whether they be gunto or civilian mounts.

[Dave R]

 Hiya Hamish, yes all those swords illustrated are in traditional mounts. I have been collecting photo's from the internet for a while, of Japanese officers with "variant" swords. I have for some time been thinking about the whole subject of "ancestral blades" and non standard koshirae, and went looking for evidence of what was actually carried in action. There is a surprising amount of stuff out there to see and had already concluded that a lot of them were just "old swords" rather than "family heirlooms". I could go on at length, but will not do so here. 

 I believe an antique blade in a full formal Shin-Gunto koshirae is a rarity, and to my mind indicates the outlay of some serious money and deliberate choice rather than just the carrying of what was available. I am inclined to agree with you about the definition of a "Crew Gunto", regarding proportions and mounts. It would be interesting to see how many of them utilise an old Wakizashi blade and how many if any of them have a Showa era blade, either traditionally made or in modern steel! 

[Stegel]

Hamfish, i believe the photo you have shown, shows the even smaller Tanto version.

My naval sword is 850cm in mounts overall. The handle is about 3cm shorter than the normal issue.

 

The blade is mumei with no Arsenal stampings whatsoever.

[Stegel]

Shamsy, i'm not sure what is meant by "cut off gunto in shortened scabbard"....

and also, the width of handle in mine is relatively similar to the standard version, just it being shorter, and the tanto version shorter again.

I think this makes sense, as with my line of thinking, the grip needs to be the same for all standard personnel, we are not talking about miniturization to the point of it being scaled down like a pocket knife.

[Kai-Gunto]

Heres my shorter kaigunto

[Stegel]

Hi Thomas,

Very nice indeed!

What are the overall dimensions of yours??

I just looked at the original post sword for comparison and mine is 20.5 inches cutting edge with 33.5 inches overall compared to 21 1/8" and overall 31 1/2". My scabbard is about 3 3/4" longer than the blade.

Sorry i've gone to imperial measurements to keep in line with the original posting.

Even though it looks scaled in proportion, it could actually be a few inches shorter i believe.

Ern

[Brian]

Not sure where the confusion lies. There were shops where anyone with money could get any mounts made. So if you didn't have a lot of money, you took your wakizashi and had it mounted in regular off-the-shelf Gunto mounts. And if you had the budget, and maybe wanted a shorter sword for some or other reason, you ordered custom mounts scaled to whatever size you want.
It's not like there were all these shorter "crew" gunto in the military store-room that you could be issued with. These would have been custom made and privately funded imho.

We have all seen everything from antique wakizashi in old mounts, only with a combat cover added, to full Gunto with old wakizashi blades in them...to regular looking blades with regular Gunto mounts that, on closer inspection, are made to a higher level of quality. It is all about what you could afford and what you ordered.

[Stegel]

You're right in what you say Brian, however it appears that these smaller 'crew' mounts were more prevalent with tank/pilot and submarine crews as indicated by Ohmura's link given by Dave previously.

http://ohmura-study.net/977.html (there are 4 pages in total here)

My understanding is that you could get anything from katana size,to wakizashi and even tanto, all in the official IJA/IJN koshirae.

I have seen wakizashi in katana size koshirae, and i think this is where the confusion may lie.

I've also seen "pilot" swords which had not army, but air force fittings (propellors instead of cherry blossoms), so the premise may seem correct.

These smaller 'crew' mounts are presumed to be used by personnel in confined areas, although i personally cannot see them being of much benefit in a plane,tank or submarine (bar the space saving concept), as in reality they would be in deep sh*t if it come to that stage. For Samurai, they may have been useful indoors, but they never contended with bullets or grenades as much.

Open to further opinions...

Ern

 

[Dave R]

 The Shin-Gunto was a required item of an officers uniform, he would be improperly dressed without one, to that I think you can add the Japanese reverence for the sword and the moral effect of carrying one. I have also seen on Ohmura's site and elsewhere some very practical mounts for shorter blades, evidently intended for use either as a survival tool or a  close combat weapon. As a footnote here are two pics of traditional wakizashi carried into combat, one in Manchuria pre-dating WW2 and one at the very end of the war.

[Kai-Gunto]

My kaigunto......

Tsuka 21,2 cm.

Nagasa 53,5 cm.

Saya 70 cm.

Saya is also much longer than normal for blades. I have checked inside and its made for the blade.

[Dave R]

My kaigunto......

Tsuka 21,2 cm.

Nagasa 53,5 cm.

Saya 70 cm.

Saya is also much longer than normal for blades. I have checked inside and its made for the blade.

 Hiya, is the blade an old one or Showato? When you say made for the blade, do you mean the wooden liner?

[Kai-Gunto]

Its an old blade with black high gloss lacqured wood saya with all fittings.

[Shamsy]

Shamsy, i'm not sure what is meant by "cut off gunto in shortened scabbard"....

Simply put, Mr Dawson is stating that a fair few of the so called crew gunto are in fact shortened gunto meant to deceive collector's. Now, I'll add that there are plenty of exceptions to the rule when it comes to military swords, so I'm sure there will be examples that don't meet the criteria, but cannot hurt to be aware.

 

Because Hamish's sword is in custom mounts, there is little to no doubting authenticity. There are also plenty of waks mounted for use, but these were often in adapted military mounts or even full size ones. Here is a picture of a crew Kai-Gunto showing clearly the comparatively thin tsuka when compared to standard Kai-Gunto. Also, as Brian said, you could get anything mounted. I don't think it's easy then to define a crew gunto and calling it crew refers to use as opposed to style. Unless you know exactly where it was claimed, you're probably guessing at the crew part.

 

If you disagree with Mr Dawson, by all means please do. F&G have been shown to be incorrect or outdated. I've offered about all I have to contribute so I'll call it a day on this topic.

[Shamsy]

My kaigunto......

Tsuka 21,2 cm.

Nagasa 53,5 cm.

Saya 70 cm.

Saya is also much longer than normal for blades. I have checked inside and its made for the blade.

SoIhave a little more to offer after all! A lovely example of a wakizashi length Kai-Gunto and I'll add those saya covers must have been standard design as the third sword in the pic I attached is basically identical but for the presence of a button as opposed to push fit. There is one in the Byars collection with the same cover to, but that's distinctly late war. Therefore I wonder if that was an economic measure since field saya are far easier to produce?

 

It's impossible really to say why it's shorter but probably for aircraft or submarine use. As already stated, unless you know exactly where it came from and trust that story, you're only guessing!

[reeder]

I have a wakizashi in Type 98 mounts that has a shorter saya & latch on the tsuba, but the tsuka is about standard size.  The sword I'm referring to is the Type 98 on the top of the wrack to compare to other, standard sized, gunto.  It's an older blade that is mumei.

[Kai-Gunto]

Heres the saya out of the cover.

SoIhave a little more to offer after all! A lovely example of a wakizashi length Kai-Gunto and I'll add those saya covers must have been standard design as the third sword in the pic I attached is basically identical but for the presence of a button as opposed to push fit. There is one in the Byars collection with the same cover to, but that's distinctly late war. Therefore I wonder if that was an economic measure since field saya are far easier to produce?

It's impossible really to say why it's shorter but probably for aircraft or submarine use. As already stated, unless you know exactly where it came from and trust that story, you're only guessing!

Heres the saya out of the cover.