Tokubetsu Juyo Rai Kuniyuki

[Curran]

Taking a break from work visiting some of the major dealer sites.

I don't know when he posted it, but came across Darcy's Rai Kuniyuki

 

http://nihonto.ca/rai-kuniyuki-2/

 

Wow, that is a healthy old blade with enough nie to sand up a Bermuda or Florida beach.

 

 

 

[Brian]

Think I would give every sword and piece of fittings that I own to acquire that one. But don't think I would even come close.

Wow...sword of a lifetime. Think my hands would shake every time I took it out of the shirasaya.

[Fuuten]

Listed only a few days ago, very beautiful, and like usual a nice write up too

[Brian]

I think this is what the DTI offers if you know what you are doing, and do it well.

[Curran]

Mmh, different opinion on that Brian.

Even at the DTI-  as a non-Japanese: you're Japanese better be very good or you have to be someone known to get to see and handle these.

 

Don't get me wrong:  some are quite open and even a little polite Japanese language goes a long way.

Just.... much much better to be Darcy when trying to get access to this level of blade. 

[Pete Klein]

Brian -- you just said a mouth full!

 

Curran -- I was typing as you were posting -- Yup, money alone doesn't do it. Yah gotta prove your intention.

[Curran]

At DTI:    Juyos are a dime a dozen and yes, most will let you handle them no problem. A few are Xenophobic.

 

It quickly falls away at the Toku Juyo level. Those, you look at under glass unless you are with someone known and they OK you.

When you get into the vault level Toku Juyo and beyond, then you better have a proven track record of knowledge, appreciation, commitment, and conviction (to be a buyer).

[Alan F]

I think you guys are making stuff up: "Prove your intention"? "Vault level Tokuju"? "Proven track record"?

 

You know what it is? The smell of money. Dealers of any high end commodity (particularly artwork) can smell from a mile away whether your wallet is packed full of money, or not. I would be willing to bet that if you walked confidently into any shop in Tokyo with the determination to procure a high end sword, then you would be welcomed to view anything they had for sale. Granted there might be some old guys who would rather see a foreigner get lost, but I suspect they are few these days.

 

It's like when someone walks into a Porsche or Mercedes dealership out of curiosity. They know if your just dreaming. Your approach, your posture, and somewhat apologetic demeanour. "I just wanted to have a look." 

 

I worked in a motorcycle dealership, before I got my post-secondary education. They used to call the undecided time-wasters "nose-pickers".

 

But you guys are right about the intention and conviction part. 

 

I pick my nose a lot too.

 

But then there is a corollary to that: Sometimes a well intentioned prospective buyer presents himself in dirty jeans and torn t-shirt, and is dismissed as a bum.   The dealer never realizes any better, and loses prospective client. Respect for custom is another issue altogether.

 

Pietro

[Jamie]

Pietro,

Have you attended a DTI?

I am just curious.

[paulb]

I admit I am a little bemused by this. As Curran says, or sort of says, there a numerous Juyo papered blades at the DTI. And my own limited experience has been that the vast majority of dealers were more than happy to let me look at them in detail (maybe the grey hair makes me look more of a spender than I am!)

The lack of swords with higher papers on display did not lessen my experience. If dealers choose to be careful regarding who they show these works to can you really blame them? I have witnessed shows that are crowded with people, you have no idea the level of understanding and you just have to watch some of them pick up swords to know they are a liability and risk to both sword and anyone else standing around. While those at the DTI may be more knowledgeable I am sure there is a wide range on understanding and the non Japanese are by no means the bottom of the food chain there. If dealers with swords worth several hundred dollars are careful Isn't it reasonable that those with blades with a huge price tag should be equally cautious?

I think they are just trying to protect their investment. I think in those circumstances I would probably do the same.

From my point of view I was envious enough looking at the Juyo level blades I couldn't afford to buy. If I had seen a lot of even better swords I would have probably left in an even more depressed state!

[Alan F]

I hope no one was offended by my post.

 

No, Jamie, I have not attended a DTI. I am relatively new to collecting, and I have not had the time to attend one of these shows. I do not doubt that some dealers may be selective about what they show to prospective customers, based upon hierarchy.

 

Curran said, "I think they are just trying to protect their investment." That is entirely understandable. If a gaijin on holiday walks into a fine shop in Tokyo hoping to just have an ogle at one of their best swords, why should they produce it? Unless they get the sense that he's truly looking to buy. Every time you unsheathe or sheathe a sword, you risk producing fine scratches and burnishing marks. Not to mention that if the customer is not careful, the sword may be marred. I think that if your intention is to buy, and you have the money, then why wouldn't they show the best items to you? If you are just "looking", then forget it.

 

Pietro

[John A Stuart]

When it comes to shops in Tokyo or Kyoto; they scare the hell out of me. Narrow aisles, precarious perches, that niggling feeling to purchase something to justify the owners time, afraid to look at things I can't afford in 10 lifetimes, my normal social awkwardness, a love hate thing. I could spend days in some shops just ogling, but, don't like the pressure sometimes, of my own making. John 

[Curran]

Curran said, "I think they are just trying to protect their investment."

 

Pietro

 

Did I? Where?

I know I am getting a little senile.

 

I totally understand Pietro's opinion, as I came into this hobby and there were (and still are a few) guys who claimed they were the keys to the Gates of Heaven of Japan because of their connections.

Two decades later, the truth is somewhere in the middle. One or two really could open doors, though many were blowhards.

 

Pietro said, "I would be willing to bet that if you walked confidently into any shop in Tokyo with the determination to procure a high end sword, then you would be welcomed to view anything they had for sale."

Ah... No. _Mostly true... but not true. True of places like Ginza Choshuya, but not true for others. I can think of at least two places that won't really open to you just on the basis of money.

Reasons vary.

 

I'll add/edit this more later, as am dead tired. I understand Pietro's opinion and largely agreed with it at one point.

Now, I disagree with it.

[Greg F]

I think Pietro meant to say Paul not Curran about protecting their investment. I havnt been to Japan YET but I think its good if top end sword dealers are a little more protective of the most important swords as I would hate to hear about a top blade being ruined because a rich guy had the cash to buy it but doesnt have the appreciation or respect for nihonto to preserve and handle it properly. Im planning a trip to Japan in the near future and im sure I will have the same feeling of pressure while wanting to ogle all day in certain sword shops but I dont want to regret not asking or looking at something special because of that niggling feeling to buy to justify the dealers time but Im sure I will.

 

All the best.

 

Greg

[Alan F]

Yeh, I did mean Paul (not Curran) regarding the protecting investment statement.

 

Okay. Here is the challenge, Curran. Everyone on this board contributes a bit towards a ridiculously large pool of money. You provide us with the names of those two shops in Japan who are holding back, just because they don't really value money all that much. They would much prefer that their best swords find a nice Japanese "forever home". Sorry, that's an irritating term that the doggy breeders use frequently. 

 

I'll take the pile of cash to Japan with me (flying first class, of course), and walk into both of these shops. I'll slap the great wad of cash down on the counter and say, "show me your best sword". When I get home, after I have spent any remaining dollars on Sake and escorts, we'll submit the sword to an impartial expert and see what he says. The sword will then be sold for a net loss on eBay, and every member will receive a small portion of his original contribution back as a token of gratitude.

 

Pietro

[Guido]

You provide us with the names of those two shops in Japan who are holding back, just because they don't really value money all that much.

 

Not only Curran, but quite a few others could give you at least two names - one in Tōkyō, one in Ōsaka are the most prominent - of sword dealers who will be completely unimpressed by your money. If you amend your proposal/challenge, i.e. paying back the participants in full plus interest if you are not able to buy their most expensive sword, I'm in.

[Brian]

Just have to laugh to myself a little. Not at anyone's expense. But having been there just a little, the first thing that strikes you about Japan, is how UN-Western their thinking and actions are. Things that we expect just don't cross their minds. Like the type of commercialism that was mentioned above.
Yes, they want to make money. But sometimes history and art and tradition and other factors just overshadow what we would expect, to the point that most of us would never even see the top stuff, never mind be offered it for sale. You don't just wave around money and have them thrust swords at you.

Guido and Reinhard and Darcy would be able to tell you more. The top stuff isn't available open in public. Don't use Western commercial expectations when considering the market there. It just doesn't work that way. The high end dealers don't sell to put food on the table. They sell to clients who they think deserve the opportunity to purchase, and who will pass them on to suitable owners later.
I am sure that at any one time, more than one Masamune is for sale. And all the other top makers. But you won't see those swords on a shelf at the DTI. Wave around lots of cash, and I expect your chances at those will be even less. It is hard to explain. You have to go there to understand it.

[Bazza]

I have heard that top-end swords sell on a telephone call and not on the open market.

 

BaZZa.

[Darcy]

Yeh, I did mean Paul (not Curran) regarding the protecting investment statement.

 

Okay. Here is the challenge, Curran. Everyone on this board contributes a bit towards a ridiculously large pool of money. You provide us with the names of those two shops in Japan who are holding back, just because they don't really value money all that much. They would much prefer that their best swords find a nice Japanese "forever home". Sorry, that's an irritating term that the doggy breeders use frequently. 

 

I'll take the pile of cash to Japan with me (flying first class, of course), and walk into both of these shops. I'll slap the great wad of cash down on the counter and say, "show me your best sword". When I get home, after I have spent any remaining dollars on Sake and escorts, we'll submit the sword to an impartial expert and see what he says. The sword will then be sold for a net loss on eBay, and every member will receive a small portion of his original contribution back as a token of gratitude.

 

Pietro

 

 

I am sure it's a joke, but if you were to do this all you'd do is overpay for something not great and because you couldn't tell the difference they'd leave the best thing in the back and you'd never even be aware of it. You'd buy something sure, they wouldn't let you walk out with your money. 

 

You'd be left with the perception you want but everyone who knew a thing or two about swords would groan and put their head in their hands.

 

They test you over there because they want to know who you are so they know what to sell you. If you are one kind of customer you get one kind of blade. They don't want to waste your time or their time. So they will figure you out and sell you what you need and bow and wave and say thank you, maybe invite you to lunch if you spent a lot. 

 

Keep in mind that there is a kind of guy who wants a flawless blade so complains about koto. So he gets shown a shinshinto and then he may complain about it being young. So he gets shown a shinto and then he reads on the internet that Juyo is important so he says it's OK but I want a Juyo, so he sees one and says wow it's so expensive because it's Juyo and I should get an older blade for this much money.

 

Then he opens up a book and quotes one of the authors praising a sword and he says that he wants a wide powerful blade with an ikubi kissaki and a lot of activity in the ji, not so much flaws, he wants it to be koto and so good that it might pass Juyo but don't worry about the paper and keep the price down (he thinks the paper causes it to be expensive you see, not the sword itself). Signed is preferred.

 

Tada!

 

 

If he were so lucky as to be shown this sword he would react by saying, this is too short for me I want a longer one. D'oh.

 

 

Tada!

 

So you give it to him and say, and lucky for you, it's not Juyo!!!!!! 

 

Now nobody wants to go through trying to educate this guy. He wants something for nothing like a lot of people. Dealers over there are smart and they want to know if you are going to help their business or not. If you want to spend a lot of money they will sell you something but you won't get the best sword because you can't identify it. And they know it. They will size you up and test you and you will get what you will buy, but what you think is what you're going to buy is not necessarily what you are really buying. They will just do what is necessary to make you happy and won't try to educate you. Unless you have built a good relationship or they are really generous. Then they will educate you a bit. 

 

I have gone into dealer's shops with money to spend and I have been told this while the room was filled with boxes of swords, "I don't have anything to show you." 

 

That is a great relationship to have. 

 

And basically here are the keys to getting the good relationship:

 

1. don't waste time (you need to know your subject matter)

 

2. don't waste time (you need to not make unrealistic pricing proposals)

 

3. don't waste time (you shouldn't talk about how cool you are and how you have all this great stuff and how one day you're going to buy the sword that sings to you... basically pretending to be a buyer of something that you are not, though you would pick it up off of a dead samurai's body and proudly display it if you had a chance)

 

4. don't waste time (your desires and your budget need to be in line with each other or else don't open your mouth)

 

5. don't waste time (pay your bill now, or tomorrow if possible)

 

6. don't waste time (know enough to be able to evaluate a sword and make a decision on it without involving months of advice of 37 other "friends" and "connections" who probably don't know any more than you and/or some of whom are also dealers and will tell you everything else is crap but they will make you a sweet deal)

 

7. don't waste time (don't back out of your purchases the next week because you got cold feet, keep your commitments ** this is not saying that you should never back out, ultimately you need to do what makes you happy, but the kind of guy who says go then stop one time usually says it multiple times and this degrades your reputation and relationship with your counterparty, so when you do it you need to weigh out how much that relationship means to you (possibly nothing) vs. the need to back out...)

 

8. don't waste time (don't return the blade in 3 months or 9 months because you discovered a kitae ware or because a friend of a friend told you it's not good and offered to take your money from you once you got your refund)

 

9. don't drop a sword, don't spit on a sword, don't touch anything without asking

 

10. have enough knowledge to show reverence if someone whispers "shintogo" or "yasutsugu" or "sanjo" or "awataguchi" in your ear while handing you something that you just got the keys to the inner sanctum and if you do not trigger on this, either by understanding what was said or even better, what is in your hands, then you will never know that you had the keys and lost them at the same time

 

Edit: And number 10 is not something that can be understated. It shows that you're ready. When you can get nervous or excited about picking something up or both at the same time. When you're humble, the top collector I ever knew is the only one who consistently bowed to his swords every time. That is impressive to me and I am not Japanese even. He does that and he demonstrates that he's ready. The first sword he bought from me he came to see it and it had some flaws in it but was Tokubetsu Juyo. So I was gritting my teeth and just waiting for the comment "but it has a flaw". And instead he looked at it and put it away and he said, "Ah, there is nothing like a Kamakura sword." And I knew he got it. When that happens, you can connect. It's like a secret club. He gets it, he gets it! You can show him anything now, that's how you feel and maybe some of what they feel. Not to mention the pride both personal and cultural as well as making sure that the horrible of horrible does not happen, which is that a good sword ends up in the hands of a doofus. 

 

Money is just one aspect of a relationship. It's required at some point to further the relationship. But the guy who thinks that money is everything in the relationship will never quite get the best relationship.

 

There is a guy in Tokyo who owns more Juyo Token than every collector in the world outside of Japan combined. He buys more than you can imagine. One dealer told me, "I don't show this one to him because he will just bug me about buying it."

 

So that is something to really think about, that last statement, why it was said and what it means. 

[Guido]

Something that hasn't been mentioned so far, but goes along the lines of #s 1 & 10 in Darcy's post: some dealers will show you their most important (and expensive) swords even if they know you're not in the market of buying them. Just because they know that your heart is into a certain smith/school, and they like how determined you are in your studies. And maybe because they like you.

 

When I started studying and collecting Sōshū and Sō-den swords, I made the rounds of Tōkyō dealers. In one shop I had visited before on several occasions, I asked to look at a jūyō den-Tametsugu. The shop owner showed it to me, although he probably knew that I would have a hard time coughing up the dough for that sword. He then said "it's a nice sword, but I have one that might be more interesting." He went to his back office, and returned with a jūyō-bunkazai Norishige. "You know that it has to stay in Japan even if you buy it, right?" he asked with a wink. We both had a good laugh, and I think he enjoyed me drooling over that sword as much as I enjoyed studying it.

 

No, it certainly isn't all about money.

 

[Shogun8]

This is a great thread. I particularly enjoyed - and appreciated - Darcy's and Guido's comments.

 

Thank you.

 

John

[Stephen]

Agreed, should be pinned. 

[Curran]

Not only Curran, but quite a few others could give you at least two names - one in Tōkyō, one in Ōsaka are the most prominent - of sword dealers who will be completely unimpressed by your money. If you amend your proposal/challenge, i.e. paying back the participants in full plus interest if you are not able to buy their most expensive sword, I'm in.

 

Guido:  I was thinking of one in Tokyo and the other I believe is near Osaka. Probably I could add a third in Tokyo, though the son is a bit more open than the father.

 

As usual, Darcy's points are spot on. Painfully so, and I wish I could say I'd never broken any of them. Lessons learned by me, and I have tried to be patient with others as they evolve too.

---> Darcy has been patient with a lot of us nimrods over the years. It is fun to watch him operate at the DTI, but he is quite busy while most of us are more on the tourist side of things.

 

As per Guido's story with the bunkazai Norishige:   yes, many of us know our level.

It has been great when a few collectors and dealers have let me be part of something much beyond what I could afford or otherwise access. They know it, and I know it: yet they still share.

Also, in two instances in Japan, it has only been through a friend [both members here on NMB] that I've been able to see and handle items otherwise just known of in books. When the guest of someone else and their relationship, extra extra careful to be polite and thankful to the host yet due respect and place to the primary relationship between the host and the person he invited.

[Wayben]

I've really enjoyed this thread.  The insights are very interesting for those of us that haven't had the opportunity to visit dealers in Japan.

[b.hennick]

....As per Guido's story with the bunkazai Norishige:   yes, many of us know our level.

Curran I hope that the level keeps on changing as one studies and learns more. I think that one needs to set a goal an learn/save towards that goal. Once that goal is mt set another and then another. It worked for me. The work continues, the learning continues and the opportunities present themselves. Each goal must be attainable in a reasonable period of time. I'm sure that most of the senior members of this board have done just that. 

[Tanto54]

Dear Pietro,

 

No offense intended, but perhaps an analogy would help you understand.  What if two guys wanted to marry your daughter...  One is rich and throws a lot of money around but doesn't appear to know much about relationships.  The other is not rich, but he's sincere and is obviously trying to have a great relationship with her.  Who do you want to marry your daughter?  My swords are like my daughters (you'll need to learn a lot more about relationships before I ever let you near one of them...)

[Guido]

Btw, there's a strange twist to my story: some time later I was asked to smuggle the Norishige out of Japan through certain channels I have access to. Needless to say that I refused. A few months later the dealer - who always had a booth at the DTI, and is known to many who have been there - kind of disappeared. I heard rumors that he owed a lot of people a lot of money, that he had problems with the tax authorities, that he was arrested, that he went into hiding.

 

But enough story telling, let's set up that fund raiser for Pietro.

[Stephen]

Kinda sad comfort knowing ill never have them problems

[Guido]

P.S.: I just realized that I'm able to share this anecdote (and there are many more) simply because … I'm getting old! Where's that young feller who strolled with all the confidence in the world into Iida Kōendō 35 years ago, although he wasn't able to tell the difference between a katana and a crowbar? I guess what I want to say is that we (including, and first and foremost, myself) shouldn't be too hard on newbies who are just starting, and still have lots of misconceptions and romantic ideas. However, collecting crowbars can be very rewarding, too! 

[Alan F]

Yep, it was intended to be a silly joke. Selling a Tokuju sword on eBay for a net loss? I thought it was funny.

 

What got me going were the simple comments made by Pete and Curran earlier on in this thread.

 

Pete said: Yup, money alone doesn't do it. Yah gotta prove your intention.

Well, sure. But to prove your intention, you have to have some money in your pocket. That is my contention.

 

Curran said (somewhat reflexively): When you get into the vault level Toku Juyo and beyond, then you better have a proven track record of knowledge, appreciation, commitment, and conviction (to be a buyer).

 

A rather generic reply, perhaps not borne out of a genuine experience, I thought. Again, commitment and conviction relies entirely upon having the money to spend. 

 

Tanto 54 (George): The sword-daughter analogy is ridiculous. If I had any daughters, I certainly would not prize even the rarest sword as greatly. Once you have sold a previously loved sword, does it really matter what happens to it? Unless you are hoping to buy it back in the future. You can't protect everything, and the cold sword does not have a soul (some may want to disagree). Daughters and sons do have souls, and carry your genes.

 

Guido: I love your sense of humour. I have two old Japanese crowbars. Both of them are Juyo Token chunks of well hammered steel. 

 

Quick! Someone note down what he said about not being "too hard on newbies who are just starting", before he has a change of heart and edits his post.

 

Pietro