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A Sword I Am Looking At Right Now...


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Here again is the early release of what I am calling the 'Hizen-Smith Code'.

 

OMG it looks so old now. And so much more is now known since I unveiled it.

 

You would NOT believe (and I am saying 'YOU WONT BELIEVE' so I know you wont... so I'm not letting you see it yet) how a swordsmith can write his name... break it up like-a-puzzle... and THEN write another province using the parts TA-DAAAAH! 

 

Before TV.... before radio... omg did they like a good puzzle. Well.... don't pay a Shinsa... I'll answer it for you...

 

...YES they did like a good puzzle.

post-2842-0-56607500-1451588517_thumb.jpg

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Karl Peter Smith, do you write and /or speak Japanese? Showing my ignorance, deciphering who is signing by how they write it is a little like deciphering personality from head bumps (phrenology) and especially so if you are not fluent in reading and writing Japanese (I confess I am not.) I rarely sign my name the same way at various times; on another thread i commented how smiths might possibly sign differently depending on how their hands were feeling; mine are frequently quite sore from the manual labor of working steel and other manual work, which definitely affects how I sign and can hold chisels. Also, why do you use BA behind your name? I have a BA myself, but it is considered a basic entry level degree, and few people ever place it behind their names as if it lends authority to their work; it would be like a martial artist writing an article about their art and putting down green belt as their rank. Mastery is not demonstrated at entry to middle ranks nor academic achievements. It just makes you look a little needy for recognition and undermines what you have to say. I find your theory interesting but baffling.

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...Trust me, there are no newcommers making head or tail of this or even trying to formulate any theories...

 

... Or this dumb gendai collector.  I can never understand what's being said, just a series of pops and clicks, followed closely by honking and blinking.  Beep-beep-clickity-click-code-Tadahiro-Ninja-bop-bop-look-at-this-picture-tada

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Like Paul I wonder whether this rubbish ought to be given any air however when I see that the gullible are accepting this as factual then I think that it needs to be responded to.

Karl , I looked in my copy of Hizento Shiko by Kataoka Published in 1974 and there are about thirty large sized oshigata by shodai Tadayoshi arranged in roughly chronological order . The Hi character in the first blade listed ( Circa 1600 ) has the Hi written the same as the Hi shown in your Code for the 1st Gen . The other 29 oshigata show the Hi character that you show for Munenaga.

Does this mean
a ) that Tadayoshi made and signed the first blade and also made the remaining blades which Munenaga signed for him
b ) that Tadayoshi made and signed the first blade and that Munenaga both made and signed the other twenty nine
c ) that I have misunderstood your Code . If so what am I not understanding
d ) that the code is nonsense

I also had a cursory look at the Nidai Tadahiro shown in Kataoka's book and couldn't find a single one using the Hi character that you show Nidai Tadahiro as using.

Have you read Meito Zukan by Fujishiro Matsuo ( April 1980 ) which has a very thorough analysis ot the mei of the 1st and 2nd generations?

Ian Brooks LLB

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I think that you're missing something. Expert opinion, like a shinsa panel, authors and experts focused on hizen like Robert, not only hold no sway whatsoever with Karl, their decades of experience, study, and hard work are scoffed at and disrespected by Karl. Logic and study has little to do with what Karl BA has amassed as "research". He likes to posture, throw out pictures and "fact" with zero foundational explanation of what and why he's assuming what he is - because until proven, it is just assumption.

 

But like I've said before, he has a bachelors degree so he must be smart.

 

So using that logic and drawing the conclusion that educated people are intelligent (in my experience I've only found a loose correlation between the two), I must be pretty smart too!

 

Joe BS, MBA, PMP, CSCP (top that Karl...)

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Drop it ppl!

I've said this before. Points made. Now you stop bumping the topic and stop making this personal. The subject is irrelevant, no-one else is bothered to worry about it.

People are free to come up with whatever out-there theory they feel like, and we are free to dispute it with, or without facts. When it starts getting personal, I start getting irritated.

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Well I have a doctors degree amongst some other felllowships but I am lost in this - I do have a Tadayoshi signed blade but it is probably gimei because it is signed with two characters only. IN all the oshigata the "experts" have evaluated has anyone seen a 2 character mei .

 

THanks

 

Brian Barrett, DDS, FACD,FICD,FADI,FPFA.

Mason ;)

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Brian

Yes I have seen two two character tadayoshi's. They are very rare but do exist. There is a Juyo katana that I mentioned on the board some while back because the mei matched a nijimei wakazashi I had at the time. When doing the research I heard the story the niji mei were special presentation pieces give by the Nabishima to important visitors but I have no idea if this is true not.

BTW as we are all talking about qualifications can I say now I failed my 11+ at primary school and went downhill from there :(

(also please be aware that in answering your question I am doing so as someone interested not an "expert" I'll leave that to the better qualified)

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Drop it ppl!

I've said this before. Points made. Now you stop bumping the topic and stop making this personal. The subject is irrelevant, no-one else is bothered to worry about it.

People are free to come up with whatever out-there theory they feel like, and we are free to dispute it with, or without facts. When it starts getting personal, I start getting irritated.

 

That's all well and good and I agree about making it personal, however when someone interlopes in a thread purporting expertise which is clearly false when John is seeking actual help then it is not only irresponsible but could have real world repercussions for John; such as incurring unnecessary shinsa fees and so on.

 

I have my own theory that BA Karl paid the Shoshin price for a Tadayoshi that failed shinsa and can't accept it but I digress...

 

John,

 

The best advice I can give that I have learnt in my (albeit short) time in this hobby is forget the signature for now and look at the sword. Compare all aspects, sugata, hada, hamon, boshi etc and only if enough of these are close as far as you can tell is it worth looking in depth at the mei as after all this is only to confirm the work in the blade, it is not the work. If it were I reckon one could turn a shinsakuto into a Sadamune that if looking at just the nakago is indistinguishable from the real thing quite easily.

 

If after that you're still unsure toss Roger Robertshaw an Email who I'd think given his specialization would know as much as any shinsa panel about Hizento.

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Brian ,

I have a tachi signed with the two character Mei Tadayoshi which is Tokubetsu Hozon . . I have collected oshigata of these two character mei from various sources over the years and all are signed tachimei so I guess this rules yours out ( although I am pretty sure that you know this.) . So far as I can tell these blades with the two character mei were made around 1610

 

Ian Brooks ( I dropped the LLB as no one rose  to the bait )

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When doing the research I heard the story the niji mei were special presentation pieces give by the Nabishima to important visitors but I have no idea if this is true not.

 

Paul, I have heard the same and the more general comment that some smiths who would almost always sign with a long mei would use a nijimei to distinguish special pieces made for individuals of importance (kenjo mei). The Shodai Korekazu on my website has a nijimei and was described by Tsuruta-san as a kenjo piece. To keep this on topic, I recently encountered a Nidai Tadahiro of fine quality which had only a nijimei. It was Tokubetsu Kicho and had a recent sayagaki by Tanobe-san.

 

Best regards,

Ray

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Hi

As a matter of interest i have seen a couple of signed Hizen Tadahiro's listed for sale by Nihonto australia and both times now they have proven to be Gimei , infact i almost brought the first until I asked Rogers opinion. So I guess it really is very important to do your homework on this school before committing. This is something that i have learned over some time mainly through reading the topic's on the board and listening to those with many years experience plus  reading some good books on the subject .

So a big thankyou to those who contribute on this topic . :clap:

 

Chris Nz

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Thank you for the multiple angles and queries above... as you are all 'intelligent folk' and you are all QUESTIONING what I am doing which is good.

 

(Ian post#68 is closest to the mark so far, respect to the man.) In regards to the 29 Oshigata... I started to chronologically arrange 1st Gen Tadayoshi signed blades in sequence... using the... i'll call it 'h' bottom right in 'KUNI' which is what is (the only characteristic) so far... that is unique to him... when compared to other students/commissioned blades. It's Munenaga when it doesn't touch the truly central and vertical-stroke down through 'KUNI' ...  [i can't say everything out loud] what would be a secret then???

 

In regards to (SAS< Post#65) I have a title and I use it. Swordsmiths had titles and used them to. Hey, they even put them on their swords...You seem to have a problem with titles that belong to people. It identifies them from the [OXFORD n.'idiots'] who don't have them. Identification is what I am doing. Karl Peter Smith BA. You pay for cerificates... I paid for education. And the SBS has secrets where-as the SAS doesn't anymore, touché.

 

 

In regards to signatures...Each identified chisel mark & character is like a tiny tributary to the larger signature stream. If you look at Charlie Chaplin's signature you will see how his old-age affects his signature.... how shapes change... devolve. It's dramatic. Enjoy the drama.

 

I am actually now TRYING to disprove my own Munenaga theory but I keep getting caught-up with evidence that says "Ah-h-h... I'm still right". Let me clarify that Munenaga did not make them all... and I really do WANT To tell you the names of the other 4 SWORDMAKERS that did... but I'm sat on my hands with this knowledge... as every bit of detail you give me now allows me to 'dry-run' through my [living-room poster-sized TREE of evidence'. This has to be bullet-proof before I do the big reveal. No drum-roll... just a tumbleweed at the moment. And i'm SHOCKED that even those raising questions in this POST have still not mentioned the most obvious 'NAME' who could have made them. But... they don't know who he is yet SO I laugh when some opinions obviously JUST don't know. Powder remains dry...

 

To HELP the stalwart disbelievers...  show me post#71's characters and I'll talk about them using other swords (evidence) to identify them. I don't need a hamon. Let the life-long masters of the waves with their long-boards take to the waves (surfing term) it's their playground, not mine. They can own it. Have it. 

 

How am i doing this? Military... Controlled Remote Viewing - Check out 'Ingo Swann'. You may not believe it but it gets answers... secrets. 

 

I will add... that the best book THE ARTS OF THE Japanese SWORD by B.W.ROBINSON was where this journey began [FABER and FABER] And I have made numerous edits to this copy. Added characters. Notes in the margin etc. Worth getting still. Read it on the train.

 

Maybe a lovely pic from Rogers own book (attached)... presenting DEI-MEI (signed by the students) and not by the MASTER's hand  may open a few stubborn minds to the possibility that the TADAYOSHI SCHOOL is not ALL work by the master.  

post-2842-0-98736000-1451736377_thumb.jpg

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Lets face it, its not like were short of authentic Tadahiro examples to go off and purchase.

 

Its a good job the NBTHK/NTHK do not include SPECULATING in their appraisals, or do they?  :laughing:

 

If I were to buy a Tadahiro sword, would I want one with any discrepancies WHATSOVER?............ I would want TYPICAL work, .NO i wouldn't want an unpapered sword that makes me want to SPECULATE. Ie, he was drunk when he signed, he was ill when he signed, he hit is thumb with an hammer the day before, it was part of a CODE, he was trying out a new style that particular day etc etc.

 

I don't mind Karls input (although i do not agree with him and think he may well be here to just wind folk up ;-)), it brings out some very educational responses from various folk and will answer questions for the new folk. Reading through these type of threads as also made me question stuff, so in a way helped me learn and stay interested.

 

I do think dealers should be careful when they are selling swords, Take Aoi for example, they clearly list gimei as UNRELIABLE SIGNATURE  :clap:

 

All good fun, and educational thread. :glee:

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back to interesting thread, id like Paul and Rays nijimei part expanded into another thread, When i received my Nijimei uchigatana  Norimitsu it was poopooed for the short mei and therefore  it must be a mass produced sword, i sure would like more info on this kinjo mei.

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Maybe a lovely pic from Rogers own book (attached)... presenting DEI-MEI (signed by the students) and not by the MASTER's hand  may open a few stubborn minds to the possibility that the TADAYOSHI SCHOOL is not ALL work by the master.  

 

Karl, we are aware of this, we are talking about the original OPs post and whether or not the sword is LIKELY to receive Hozen or not ,the general conclusion is unlikely, although it is upto the OP whether or not he wishes to pursue it.

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Thanks for that Kronos - my feeling at the end of the day is that it is about the SWORD - the WHOLE sword - and the fact that this sword in particular spoke to me - that I felt a connection with this sword - which is why I did the deal and now - hopefully on MONDAY - she will be on her way to me - and maybe a week after that I will have her in my hot little hands and be able to start to REALLY get to know her and study her...

 

John.

 

 

That's all well and good and I agree about making it personal, however when someone interlopes in a thread purporting expertise which is clearly false when John is seeking actual help then it is not only irresponsible but could have real world repercussions for John; such as incurring unnecessary shinsa fees and so on.

 

I have my own theory that BA Karl paid the Shoshin price for a Tadayoshi that failed shinsa and can't accept it but I digress...

 

John,

 

The best advice I can give that I have learnt in my (albeit short) time in this hobby is forget the signature for now and look at the sword. Compare all aspects, sugata, hada, hamon, boshi etc and only if enough of these are close as far as you can tell is it worth looking in depth at the mei as after all this is only to confirm the work in the blade, it is not the work. If it were I reckon one could turn a shinsakuto into a Sadamune that if looking at just the nakago is indistinguishable from the real thing quite easily.

 

If after that you're still unsure toss Roger Robertshaw an Email who I'd think given his specialization would know as much as any shinsa panel about Hizento.

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PS At this point in time the consensus from everyone seems to be that I should not submit the sword for shinsa and I am inclined to agree - I am taking the sword ''as is'' - to own, to study, to enjoy :) Well - okay - as we ALL know none of us ever ''owns'' a Japanese sword - we are simply its temporary guardian or custodian until the next chap comes along... To be honest right now the number one stress for me is not the mei - its the PAINFUL WAIT to get my new baby into my hands and to begin the process of really getting to know her... :)

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I think the sword in question is a stunner who ever made it.

My knowledge on swords is very basic but I like what I have bought even the kiyomitsu with the fatal flaw of umegame .

I cherish them for what they are.

Brian is correct we should never make anything personnel as nobody was there when the sword was made so we can only speculate.

Interesting thread btw so let's not spoil it please.

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Thanks for that Loiner :) I was starting to think that I was the only person who saw this - the beauty of this sword... Truly (and its not just because I am biased and the sword is now mine lol) to me this is a beautiful sword - and I know she is a sword I will spend many hours appreciating and getting to know better - and at the end of the day, THIS is what its all about isn't it ? :)

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