Nice Tsuba With Varous Religious Figures (Any Ideas Who, When Made?)

[ggil]

Hello Nihonto lovers,

 

I was wondering if anyone is willing to share thier knowledge, and tell me when and who made this bad boy.  I really have no idea how old it is.  The work is pretty outstanding, so I am hoping that someone has seen a signed one that is similar, or can point me in a good direction.  Not interested in paying $250+ for NBTK answer, knowing that some of you are knowledgable and kind enough to help me for free.

 

These are the ebay photos.  I found it on ebay from an estate reseller in Florida. They listed it a Soten style, but I don't know if soten or another school, or some talented nobody.  It is iron with inlayed alloys and guilding.  The patina has some active rust around the nakago ana, which i tried to wipe off with a napkin soaked in rubbing alcohol (some came off too!).   Not planning on further cleaning or adding any oil or anything (I don't want to hurt it in any way - worried that oil layer will become a pourous water trap after a long time without re-application - after I'm gone).  I imagine it came over in the war, and was handled for 50 years by someone who didn't think about it's longevity, and that is why the active rust. 

 

I paid a grand for it, so it is my most expensive piece of Japanese art thus far.  As always, this unknowledgable puke thanks you for your efforts and time. 

 

Thanks,

 

-Grant

 

 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

 was watching that and had wondered if it had been a cast copy, mainly because having been burned by one of late everything seems fake to me, yours i cant tell, the walking staff had to be added....you have more guts than me going for it,  good luck.

[ggil]

Thanks for the well wishing and compliment.  If it is cast, then my answer will come quick, becasue there will be others.  Anyone ever seen this exact casting (if it is such)?

 

I think you are referring to the fishing pole Ebisu has in his left hand.  I imagine that it is mostly gold, or would have been corroded long ago (being so thin).  It does kind of stick out as different than the other work (the rest is alloy guilded over iron, and therefore has exagerated depth when veiwed from the side, but this part is thin as a wire).  My though is that it was original, pure gold, and is so crooked becasue it has been banged on and deformed through norman handling.  I could be wrong though.

 

I will take hig res. photos and post soon. 

 

I am risky when it comes to my nihonto buying.  Fortune favors the bold, but waisting money favors the ill informed.  I know hardly anything at all, but just buy with my gut, and 20/10 vision.  I have been lucky, but feel that I am pressing my luck to continue buying, so had my wife change my ebay password last week (I can't logon anymore). 

 

Thanks,

 

-Grant

[Stephen]

i pray im wrong, just gunshy i hope you understand.

 

i was going to post a photo but like others its down for me

[Stephen]

ok dont know how that added i did not have a attach file...anyway you can see how hard it is for the untrained eye.

[ggil]

Very nice tsuba, your frog and (taro leaf?) shakudo one.

[Stephen]

well stay on topic, im waiting for Ford san to expand on it being a cast copy, not shakudo.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Grant , this looks like a good quality piece and I can see no reason to think that it would be cast . I feel sure that no one would apply the quality finishing touches that this has to something that is cast . There is a great article on Soten tsuba elsewhere on the site . I would think that if you spent $250 on papers then they would probably tell you what you already know ie Soten school . Its a nice piece that is well worth owning in my opinion .

Ian Brooks

[ggil]

Zoomed in pictures.  Enjoy

 

-Grant

[ggil]

Ian, I agree, it is a pleasure to have.  I am just curious if I can get more info on it, or if someone has one which is by the same person (if the artwork is that unique or not, I have no idea).  I think it may be relatively new, becasue the patina isn't black like old iron peices.  Anyhow, lots going on there, and it must have really been something brand new. 

 

-Grant G.

[SteveM]

I have no idea who did it, but the theme is the 7 Lucky Gods

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Lucky_Gods

[kissakai]

Hi

I have a cast Namban tsuba which is easy to see that it is cast

If you look inside the opening for the blade (nakago ana) you will see a joint line.

On mine it was easy to see but I can't see a joint line on your tsuba

 

 

Grev UK

[Geraint]

Dear Grant.

 

Brilliant photos and a good find for the tsuba.  If you think in terms of design and execution then the flowing and balanced distribution of figures allied to the fine carving and modelling and the detailed inlays work would all suggest that this is a good piece.  Can't help with the attribution except to say that I think it is well above the average Soten school work but probably quite late.  Look at the way the dragon is carved and his head comes above the level of the surrounding plate.  And as always look at the carving of the faces.  If you can see character in faces carved on this scale then whoever made it was damn good at his craft.

 

Enjoy, I think you have got a keeper.

 

All the best.

 

P>S>  The thread referred to is in the Tosogu section, headed, Yet another Soten tsuba.

[ROKUJURO]

Grant,

please sign all of your posts.

In my opinion this is a nice TSUBA with a lot of skilled craftmanship put into it. It's appearance would profit a lot from careful cleaning (with a soft brush or even with mild soap and warm water) as the dust is obscuring many details. There are hints that the basic body may have been cast, but even if so, the main work has been put into it after casting. The design is good and full of well placed details, the faces are expressive and nicely modeled, and to my eye all the different soft metals are very well executed.

Unless Ford says that my old glass eyes need to be replaced, I congratulate you to this purchase!

[Jean]

Grant,

 

This Forum is not anonymous. Please fill in your profile form and sign all your posts with your first name followed by an initial.

[ggil]

Aye Aye Jean (about signing and profile - got it).  Thanks for the compliments on the peice.  Geraint, you sound like an art critic (well put!).  I knew when I saw it on ebay that it was a nice piece.  I wasn't wanting to spend $1000 on it, but I'm happy to have it for that , just the same.  About cleaning it, I am reserved on this one.  A bit too nice to mess with.  Plus I don't know what Im doing.  removing dirt and dust just robs protection from the awful and corroded surface underneith.  Actually, the dust provides an enjoyable contrast.  If i pull the dust, Ill have red flaky junk under it.  If i had the umpteen hours needed to deal with what was under the dust, i'd still be in a lurch:  i don't want to add oil/wax becasue I'm thinking that eventually the wax layer fails, and remaining wax becomes a water trap, and the piece dies sooner.  If I had the knowledge to add an oxide layer (not the red kind), then I would clean it under magnification (very carefully), chemically add a thin oxide layer, and then maybe a wax layer.  If I can't do it right, I won't mess up what is there.  I can stabilize the piece by putting it into a sealed (airtight) case.  Current plan is to have Tap Plastics help make me a deep, mirrored back box to hang on the wall (sit the tsuba at an angle so you can observe both sides).  I can fill it with helium (from a dollar tree balloon), put in dessicant to consume the oxygen, or just let the piece eat the oxygen unitil its all gone.  That is the best way for my uneducated and BUSY body to make sure the piece is preserved through my stewardship, I think.  Eventually, I may have the time, and gained the knowledge to actually attempt a bit or restoration on the piece, but for now, it is better with dirt, i think. 

 

-Grant G.

[peterd]

HI Grant, I like your tsuba and think it might be quite early.Good carving,good faces,much like  the originals

[Stephen]

so happy to know i dont know what i feared,,,it is lovely 

[ROKUJURO]

Grant,

thank you for your PM reply.

As it is similar to your post above, I may reply here as well.

First rule is: Do not touch the TSUBA's surface mechanically or chemically if you don't know how! You will not see deteriorate the TSUBA in this life or the next, if you keep it dry.

So: No soaking in oil or other chemicals! Applying heat after a little water wash may be a good thing if it is very moderate. Your central heating system or sitting it near your stove for half an hour may be sufficient. No heat gun!

The warm water may even be enough if you dry your TSUBA thoroughly with household paper right after the cleaning wash.

Second rule: Never mess with the patination until your nickname is Ford Hallam! What was built up in centuries is gone in seconds!

Don't bury your TSUBA in an airtight coffin (or box) for display, but use a standard KIRI wood box. That will be appropriate and technically sufficient.

My suggestion for a first step is a soft dry cleaning with your wife's toothbrush. Then look carefully if that was enough. If not, PLEASE read what you find here on NMB about cleaning, rust removal or restoring TSUBA. There is a wealth of information, and you are not the first collector to face the problem! 

[ggil]

Peter, maybe it is old, but the patina on the ?seppa dia? seems to be not dark enough to be from 1700's. I will show it to the sword club the next time I go, they will have ideas of how old it is. I am guessing mid 1800's utsushi. Maybe the artist doing utsushi didn't sign it because it was done to represent soten, therefor not 100% theirs, or maybe im all wrong and it was actual soten school and the artist thought the work was good enough to not need signature (besides the market was flooded with gimei soten garbage anyway, so A soten mei may have lowered value, by the later end of the school)

 

- Grant G

[ggil]

To Rokujuro,

 

Airtight = dramatically slow down the aging process.  A piece that could last a thousand years can be made to last hundreds of thousands of years (i'd imagine).  This is why we oil our blades!  I guess the idea of impermanence is one I have not quite come to terms with, but who has really.  I will think about your suggestions, but doubt that i will be cleaning the piece any time soon.  Like I said, the dust doesn't look too bad (better than the corrosion underneath), so I will leave it.  Who knows, the dirt may actually be helping prevent corrosion, rather than acting as a catylist and facilitating corrosion.  Just think, where specs of dust are taken away, oxygen can replace the spot they occupied, and break down the metal.  We have to be realistic, over traditional, when tradition stops making sense, but I am a staunch anti-conformist, and so biased against tradition. 

 

-Grant

[ROKUJURO]

Grant,

we don't oil our blades, we keep them dry. Oil is no real help if you live in a humid climate unless you drown your blade in it.

As far as your TSUBA is concerned, I will have a closer look at it in one hundred thousand years. I will mark the date in my calendar and bring one of my own TSUBA for comparison....

[Stephen]

id ask a pro before id consider your plan of action 

[ggil]

Touché Seriously though "we don't oil our blades". Who is the anti-traditionalist now? I guess that would be the el natural way to go. Most do oil blades, however. It's only a minority that do what you do. I wonder if the museums in Japan oil blades? I bet so.

 

Pretty witty about the tsuba though! Got me a good laugh!

 

To Stephen (sorry about that Stephen), sound advice! I will follow it.

 

- Grant

[ggil]

Ford,

 

You out there? What do you think about the sealed "coffin" idea (airtight deep plastic display box mirror-backing)? Would you like to see the tsuba in hand and give me suggested best course of action or possible courses? How much is your charge for such appraisal/restoration planning services?

 

- Grant

[Ford Hallam]

Grant

 

this piece is a very good, relatively early (for the school, perhaps mid 18th cent.) Soten style work, imo.

 

Sadly the original patina has been stripped off at some point relatively recently. By the looks of the various metal surfaces it looks to me as though a mild acid or pickle of some sort was the culprit. The biggest 'give away' for me are the bright pink copper patches on Hotei's robe.

 

What this really needs is a proper restoration and then it can safely be stored in a kiri-bako and treated just like any other tsuba in good condition.

 

Hope that helps.

 

ford

 

p.s. the iron is almost certainly a very finely worked wrought iron, which would be usual for Soten work.

[ggil]

Wow Ford! I will be in touch so we can "talk turkey." Sad that so much art was lost and mistreated during the war, but then again, Japan had it coming. Thanks for the reply!

 

- Grant G

[jason_mazzy]

it was you who wrangled this away!

[Jean]

Grant,

 

The fact of oiling blades or not has nothing to do with tradition, it is a question of necessity. I live in Paris, my flat and about 99% of Paris flats are dry enough to avoid oiling blades. In half of the world or more, weather is dry enough to prevent collectors from oiling blades, oiling blades is a drag for koshirae and even for shirasaya which are to be split regulary to be cleaned. Furthermore, few collectors know how to oil correctly blades. Generally, blades are overoiled by collectors.

[ggil]

I understand about oiling. I know that I am among those that over oil.