Just Got A Tanto With Documents In Trade, And I´m Pretty Clueless!

[Zeroaltitude]

Hi!

I´ve been an admirer of Nihontos from a distance ever since youth (which was waaay too long ago!). Why "from a distance" you may ask? Well, to tell the truth, I´ve allways had too many interests, and to trying to add even a fraction of what´s to know about Japanese swords simply hasn´t been practical.

 

Today however I aquired my first true Nihonto in trade for an antique Colt percussion revolver (my main collecting interest). The blade is complete with documentation, in shirasaya mounting. The description (freely translated from Swedish to english) reads like this:

Tanto from the 1540´s. Mei Kanenori, overall length 41 cm, blade (tang excluded) 31 cm.

Shirasaya mounting 50 cm.

Habaki in silver,

Blade in good shape, shinsa performed (smith  and mei are okey). Blade has been polished over the centuries by which the double bohi on one side is gone, but there are remains on the tang that shows it´s been there. Blade has a slight twist noticeable under close scrutiny.

Documents from the NBTHK are enclosed.

 

Since I do not read a single word of Japanese, I would greatly aprecciate help translating the documents and explaining what it meens. Pictures of the documents and the blade are posted below.

 

Best regards!

Anders Olsson

 

[Stephen]

Nice trade

[Zeroaltitude]

Thanks Stephen, I hope (and think) so!

- In economical terms, it may not (or may) have been the greatest of deals, but I think I´ve at least done allright in that aspect.

- In historical terms, this tanto is more than 300 years older than any percussion revolver (if the dating is correct)! :-D

Add to that that it is a true work of art, and I´m very happy! 

 

Looking forward to getting more info on what the documents say. I do understand that translating them may take a while.

 

Anders Olsson

[Stephen]

Sorry i dont read them well so wont try, but afraid youll not get much more info than you have. 

[Zeroaltitude]

Well, solid confirmation of the information that I allready have is quite satisfactory. Right now I know nothing but what I´ve been told, by a person whom I trust, but who himself does not read Japanese and who thus has the information second hand. 

So as I said, confirmation of what I know would be perfect. Anything more than that would be a bonus. 

 

Anyway, I´ll sit here, calmly awaiting someone chiming in who is able to confirm or dismiss the information that I have so far. 

 

Best regards!

Anders Olsson

[Tokaido]

Hello Anders,

sorry to disapoint you, but the Papers of NBTHK for your sword simply state that it is a wakizashi of 31 cm length and signed by Kanenori. And it is Tokubetsu Hozon level (literally: especially worth of preservation).

The papers do not give any further clue about the age, the school or anything about the sword.

That is the normal status of information on this papers.

To explain the many columns on the paper, please visit this side:

http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sword_papers.html

Select Tokubetsu Hozon, as this is the level of your paper.

 

Greetings

Andreas

 

PS: The second paper ist the export permission. Nothing interesting here.

 

PS2: There is a very active group of the NBTHK in Sweden, so you are lucky. Find them and enjoy.

 

Correction: James C. (Kronos) ist right, it is Hozon, not Tokubetsu Hozon, sorry.

[Kronos]

It's a normal Hozon paper not Tokubetsu Hozon.

[Zeroaltitude]

Okey, thanks Andreas!

When you say that the papers "do not give any further clue about the age", does that meen that the information I´ve been given (that the blade is from the 1540´s) is incorrect or unsupported, or does it meen that it can´t be narrowed down any further than just that.

 

Is there any dating on the signature of the tang?

 

Anders Olsson

[Jussi Ekholm]

Hello Anders, welcome to the forums. You can send me your email by pm and I can hook you up with contact info of Scandinavian NBTHK. Our meetings are in Stockholm so depending where you live it might be easy or hard to get there.

 

Your tanto is in my opinion signed by Kanenori 兼則 from Mino province. Unfortunately I don't have access to my books on Mino swords at the moment but there are 10 Kotō Kanenori 兼則 in Mino listed in Seskos swordsmiths. I have Kotō-meikan on my phone and I think the closest 兼則 signature in there is the one working Tenbun (1532-1555). And I think late Muromachi is also fitting the shape of the sword.

 

I'll try to look more into it tomorrow when I get home and can access my books.

[Zeroaltitude]

Thanks Jussi, that would be great!

I live no more than 200km from Stockholm, so it's not far.

 

I'll shoot you a PM right away.

 

Any further info you can find in your reference library would be greatly aprecciated!

 

Best regards!

Anders Olsson

[MAXBLISS888]

Hi! I'm new to the hobby too.

 

Nice trade and find. With the paper, you know it's antique sword worthy of preservation, even though the actual date was not stated. I'm sure many experience collector will be able to help you narrow it down to which era...

 

Regards,

 

Francis

[Brian]

As a pre-1900 Colt collector myself, first let's hear which model you traded

Nice sword. Many will tell you that these older green papers are not as reliable as the newer papers nowdays, but you appear to have a nice blade there that is a great start into the world of collecting. Make sure you meet up with Jussi and his crowd, as that is by far the best way to proceed, and you will learn a lot from them.

[Tokaido]

Okey, thanks Andreas!

When you say that the papers "do not give any further clue about the age", does that meen that the information I´ve been given (that the blade is from the 1540´s) is incorrect or unsupported, or does it meen that it can´t be narrowed down any further than just that.

 

Is there any dating on the signature of the tang?

 

Anders Olsson

 

Hello Anders,

simply: the paper states no date. The paper rarely state a date on a sword, which shows no dating on the nakago. Somethimes the papers tell you the generation of a smith, if it can be clearly determined and if is important for the judgment.

 

With your Kanenori, the paper is of little help to date the sword. You have to study the blade itself closely to find out the generation of the smith as well as the approximately date of manufacture. The former owner may have done this deeply and concluded a date around 1540. Jussi told you about the shape of the blade and the style of the signature and comes to the same conclusion.

Kanenori are not that rare, so you might find another one on the web to compare. But most late koto Blades from Mino are not dated...

 

Greetings

Andreas

 

[Zeroaltitude]

Thanks for the replies guys!

 

Francis, feels like one could study these blades for a lifetime, and still remain a "beginner"! :-)

 

Brian, I traded for a fairly early m/1849 Pocket, 5-shot 4" barrel in NRA "Fine" plus condition.I hope neither one of us did a bad deal (I consider the guy a buddy of mine), but at the very least he knows a lot more about antique Colts than I do about antique Japanese swords! I will most definitely try to meet up with Jussi and the others in Stockholm to let them check out the blade and for me to learn.

 

 

Andreas, thanks! I needed the clarification to sort things out. Looking back I am pretty sure that the guy I got the blade from did NOT at any point claim that the papers stated a date, only that they authenticated the blade. That the papers would put a date on it was my misconception of how it works. I'm sure he once went through the same process as me when he got the blade (it was his first), and got it dated and attributed to a smith, period and region that way. He even told me what he once paid for the blade (which was a bit more than our trade-value now).

 

Again, thanks guys!

Anders Olsson

[paulb]

Dear Anders

As a collector of both Nihon-To and Percussion revolvers I would say you both did well. The important thing is that you are both happy with the trade.

Regarding spending a lifetime studying and still being a beginner I confirm that is my and many others experience. Keep that frame of mind and you will continue to learn and gain a great deal from the process.

good luck on your journey in to Japanese swords

Best Regards

Paul

[Zeroaltitude]

Thanks Paul! Yes, I think we are both happy with the trade.

 

I'm actually considering bidding on a couple of Wakisashi. Swedens/Scandinavias premiere antique weaponry auction is actually taking place in Stockholm this tuesday. There are a couple of blades that look like decent entry-level purchases. Sadly I won't be able to check them out in person, but I know that this auctionhouse stands by its listings as far as authenticity at the very least. So I may take a chance and bid by e-mail.

 

Anders Olsson

[Stephen]

Anders 

 

Please let Jessi check the links to the Auction house sale....far to often we are lucky with our first Nihonto only to be led down a rabbit hole thinking we know what were buying...just a opinion 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Guess I don't yet have enough books, as I hit bit of a dead end.

 

This is the closest signature I could find in my books and it's from Kotō-meikan. It is listed as Kanenori (Tenbun 1532 - 1555). However I'm having difficulties matching it to anyone in Seskos Swordsmith index.

 

Some my own remarks why I picked this one. In Kane character it has short upper stroke similar to yours and it has a small "window" (many Kane have big "window"). Nori character is not exactly the same but this was closest 2 letter combination in Kanenori signatures I could find.

 

To explain my point in pics, here is Kanenori, which has long upper stroke and large "window". http://www.tokka.biz/sword/kanenori5.html

 

San'ami school in Mino province seems to have been the the home for many Kanenori smiths as I think Kanenori lineage is listed as most important of San'ami. But I'm having trouble matching that above signature from Kotō-meikan. In 1500's Seskos index lists 3 Kanenori 兼則 (all from San'ami) as Eishō, Tenbun, Eiroku and Mino-to book by Cox lists these three smiths as Eishō, Tenbun, Tenshō. However there are signatures for all 3 of these smiths in Kotō-meikan, and the signature I added to pic is to a 4th one who I think is not listed in neither of these indexes (as Tenbun smith in these both indexes is the one who moved to Echigo).  Maybe those with access to more books of Mino smiths can find this particular smith.

 

This stuff is going above my knowledge but trying to do some detective work is always fun.

[Zeroaltitude]

Thanks a lot for the help Jussi!

Let me be clear about one thing, whether this blade is worth half or double what i traded it for really makes little difference (well..., one alternative is nicer than the other, but not critically so ). Whether the smith can be positively identified or not has little or no bearing on whether I feel good about the trade either.

What does matter is that what I have is a genuine antique Japanese blade. It would also be nice to be able to attribute it to a period (that is, was it made in the early to mid 1500's or the late 1800's). Anything beyond that would be a bonus. Hopefully we can find out more about the blade, it's fun to find stuff out!

 

Jussi, I think that Stephen has a very valid point regarding my bidding on the Probus auction. Have you allready, or might I persuade you, to take a quick peek att Probus november auction (www.probusauktioner.com). If so, could you provide any quick insight on object numbers 46, 47, 51, 52 and 53? You can reply here or by e-mail. If any of the objects are "fake" or dubious it would be good for me to know. Also, it could be useful if you might find it in your heart to give me a clue on how high it would be prudent to go. I'm talking about an estimate, and I'm not buying with the intent of reselling so it needn't be cheap, just fair.

 

Best regards! Anders Olsson

[Stephen]

46 has showa stamp....steer away from arsenal stamped blades 

45 looks interesting,  

51 nakago looks cleaned of patina

id pass on 47 51

53 very intersting

[Stephen]

48 is very nice indeed

[Shugyosha]

If it was my money I was spending I would be looking at other items:

 

Re 45: I'd want to have a closer look at this one to see how bad the rust was. According to Markus Sessko's book the first two generations signing “Yamashiro no Daijō Fujiwara Kunikiyo” (山城大掾藤原国清), were ranked jo saku and the third chu saku so perhaps a good sword there at a decent price if no-one bids it up too much. The first two generations were permitted to carve the chrysanthemum with their signature so probably one of these smiths but the third generation made dai saku swords for the second.

 

48 is the pick of the bunch for me, though I feel that the starting price is a bit on the high side. It's an interesting shape, it's in reasonable fittings, in polish and signed and it looks like a very thick blade. Also, probably not a sufficiently famous smith to make it worth the trouble of forging a signature. Again from Sessko:

 

UJIYOSHI (氏善), Kanbun (寛文, 1661-1673), Owari – “Wakasa no Kami Fujiwara Ujiyoshi” (若狭守藤原氏善), “Wakasa no Kami Fujiwara Ujiyoshi” (若狭守藤原氏良), “Bishū-jū Fujiwara Ujiyoshi” (尾州住藤原氏良), “Ujiyoshi” (氏良), he signed his name with the characters (氏良) and (氏善) whereas it is assumed that (氏善) was the earlier variant, before he settled in Owari´s Narumi (鳴海) he worked in Mino province, mokume mixed with masame, mostly a midareba.

 

Best regards,

John

[Stephen]

http://www.probusauktioner.se/auktion/auktioner_lista.asp?lang=lang_2&auktionsnamn=Auktion%2025%20den%2024%20november

[Zeroaltitude]

Thanks a lot Stephen and John!

Okey, I will most certainly heed your advice regarding which swords not to bid on (disgarding my own previous selection).

I'll be placing a ridicoulously (in relation to my meager income) high bid on 48, and (compared to the starting bids) an even more ridicoulous bid on 53. Since I can't take part in the auction myself (neither in person, by phone nor online), I'll leave it to their bidding-service. It'll be a surprise tuesday evening to see whether I have purchased another sword or not. :-D

 

As you see I added nr48, even though I didn't have it on the list before. Reason it wasn't on the list is simple, it stuck out from the rest as far as the design of the blade, which made me unsure. Thanks for reassuring me, because it is a beatiful blade in what appears to me to be excellent condition.

 

Again, thanks guys, this is a GREAT place!

 

Best regard! Anders Olsson

[b.hennick]

Unless you can afford both blades I would leave the instruction that if successful, with the first sword, you want to withdraw your bid on the second blade. Otherwise you may end up with two blades just under your limit on each.

Good luck. Auctions are often not the place for bargains. I have gone to auctions where I was not able to place a single bid as the opening bid was more that the item would sell for at a show.

[Ron STL]

I checked Mino Taikan and on page 351, 2nd Illustration, shows a Kanenori mei that looks quite close to Anders's Kanenori. Still not 100% but I suspect as close as we'll come to the exact smith. His Nori character seems a little sloppy (?) which I would think making verifying it a little easier. Check it out and see what you think. This one is placed in Tensho period, 1575-1591.
 
As for the NBTHK not being "specific" on their papers, this has always been a complaint of us American collectors. I've already talked with Tanobe about this and he agreed, that "they" should include a little more information, in the end, I think it's just the way its done and that's that. At least the Hozon paper is telling the owner that the mei is accepted as authentic as signed. I think many times it is left up to us to do the homework and figure out the details. There are a number of Mino smiths named Kanenori and not all have their mei illustrated. Bottom line Anders, it looks koto and like a very handsome and authentic 430 year old blade. Congratulations. I felt happy when finally acquiring a couple 1851 Navies and a pocket Colt, something I wanted since childhood. No treasures, but I love their history! 
Ron STL

 

Not sure my photo worked. If not, I'll try again.

[Ron STL]

Not working...will try later. Heading out the door for now....Ron STL

[Zeroaltitude]

Thanks Barry and Ron!

Yup, definitely left instructions for them not to bid on the second sword if I get winning bid on the first one. While I'm sure that Ramen noodles are good for me, I'd prefer being able to afford other foods too, even after this auction! :-D

 

Ron, thanks a LOT for the effort. That is great info even if nothing is carved in stone.

 

Best regards! Anders Olsson

[Stephen]

Dont have the books any more , when checking the bottom strokes come in play as well, i call them Kane feet, some are divided direction some all slant the same way some have less than others, yours seem to have three feet of to the right ,..and not knowing the forth due to the hole. On occasion you ll find no feet, i always thought those not having a leg to stand on. 

[Zeroaltitude]

Stephen, you're waaaayyy over my head now, but that is probably because when it comes to these swords, I don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Best regards! Anders Olsson