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Acid-Etched Sashikomi?


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#1 Caleb the Bipolub

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 08:12 PM

http://www.ebay.ca/i...wAAAOSw~bFWI8sH

 

Personally never seen a sashikomi with such dark ji and such white ha.  Common?  Traditionally trained work?  Photography?

 

Thanks,

Caleb


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aka Darnit i'm sick...been drinking too much o'that fffffffiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine stuff!

aka *NOT*the-guy-doin-this-neither-fo-the-$$$norRespect-but-fo-NO-REASON (ie i do this really only for the $)


#2 Brian

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 08:21 PM

More acid/ferric chloride treatment.

can't understand why people think this is desirable :bang:


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#3 Kronos

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 09:27 PM

More acid/ferric chloride treatment.

can't understand why people think this is desirable :bang:

 

It's easier to see lol.

 

I think the aim is a dark ji, bright white line as tight as possible so it looks like ying and yang. black and white imo is the desire for the uneducated to show "it's a real samurai sword as it has a pattern" rather than looking at the artistic merit of the hamon and activities/details etc

 

I mean, look at that hamon, it's god awful and anyone with even an ounce of artistic appreciation would run a mile.


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#4 doomsdaymachine

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 03:39 AM

like taking a vintage indian and spray painting it gold...


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#5 Caleb the Bipolub

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 04:21 AM

It's easier to see lol.

 

I think the aim is a dark ji, bright white line as tight as possible so it looks like ying and yang. black and white imo is the desire for the uneducated to show "it's a real samurai sword as it has a pattern" rather than looking at the artistic merit of the hamon and activities/details etc

 

I mean, look at that hamon, it's god awful and anyone with even an ounce of artistic appreciation would run a mile.

In Art of Japanese Sword Polishing, Master Takaiwa is somehow (?!) able to turn super-rough, course/wide/deep weld-gap lines, probably god-awful hada into something that looks refined and serene.  He did this in 2 stages ie in a progression, and IMHO the subtlety this *NON* black&white approach is uber sexy.  But then, one cannot generalise...i guess that's again why only traditionally trained polishers (who knows kantei) can do traditionally trained work -Caleb


aka Duchess of Blades

aka Caleb-can-u-smellalala-watda-MOK-is-cooking!-Mok

aka Darnit i'm sick...been drinking too much o'that fffffffiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine stuff!

aka *NOT*the-guy-doin-this-neither-fo-the-$$$norRespect-but-fo-NO-REASON (ie i do this really only for the $)


#6 SAS

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 10:27 AM

The process you refer to was for the purpose of demonstrating how ji-to of varying hardnesses would affect the appearance of the jihada.


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#7 Caleb the Bipolub

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 12:34 PM

Oh right, sorry, off topic.  I guess the culprit here has less to do with anything other than the nugui itself and the acid.  Still, what i guess i was getting at is i think it's impressive when someone deliberately ~presents~ a sword with his/her skill with subtlety as though confidently knowing "the hamon's there you only have to look...i don't care if people say 'i can't see it!'  If they can't this piece is not for them." As opposed to saying 'i need to cater to my intended demographic'. -Caleb


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aka Duchess of Blades

aka Caleb-can-u-smellalala-watda-MOK-is-cooking!-Mok

aka Darnit i'm sick...been drinking too much o'that fffffffiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine stuff!

aka *NOT*the-guy-doin-this-neither-fo-the-$$$norRespect-but-fo-NO-REASON (ie i do this really only for the $)


#8 Jamie

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 02:31 PM

You might want to Look at good swords. You'll learn a lot more. There is a one in million chance you might find something good for cheap. But you'll probably get 999,999
Pieces of s**t in the meantime.
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#9 Caleb the Bipolub

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 03:04 PM

You might want to Look at good swords. You'll learn a lot more. There is a one in million chance you might find something good for cheap. But you'll probably get 999,999
Pieces of s**t in the meantime.

I have a better idea: i'll just go to Darcy's site!  :laughing:  Tomonari, Mitsutada, Kanemitsu, Awataguchi, Ayanokoji, Shizu Kaneuji, Norishige, Sadamune, Yukimitsu...it's got them all!--in great magnification and resolution!  All he needs now is a den Masamune! (and that Yoshimitsu tanto i was hoping to see  :( )


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aka Duchess of Blades

aka Caleb-can-u-smellalala-watda-MOK-is-cooking!-Mok

aka Darnit i'm sick...been drinking too much o'that fffffffiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine stuff!

aka *NOT*the-guy-doin-this-neither-fo-the-$$$norRespect-but-fo-NO-REASON (ie i do this really only for the $)


#10 kunitaro

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 11:56 AM

Using acid for polishing Japanese sword is not good for preservation as we know.

You can not really see it (especially with good polish) but, it will damage the steel in a long term.
But, In fact, it is very popular today. we can find a lot of discussion about modern polishing techniques in Japanese article and forum sites. some are very hard discussion (include some of master polisher's names...). some said the acid and machine polish is the main stream in modern polish. it is not only cheap polish, high ranking (or mukansa) polishers are also doing it. 
 
We can see some Japanese polisher complains on "Facebook Time line" page or own website about (acid) rust/polish.
Our polishing workshop also often receive such blades as well. 
They looks like normal rust, but the rust (mainly dot shape) by acid is very deep that could not polish off. sometime we had to return without polish.
and our master polisher Mr.Eto said that he sees more stronger acid treated blades in the market today, he doesn't know what....

The history of Acid polish (modern sashikomi?)  was established in WW2 time.
They were doing Kanahada nugui to make Ji dark and use acid to make Ha white. 
that is why we used to call such polish "Gunto-togi". mr.Eto is still calling them "Gunto-togi".
He is saying that many swords will not survive next 100 years.

in middle of 1980', Mr.Eto was requested sending a polisher to France.
He sent one of his student and he lived in Paris for 3-4 years.
When he start to live and polishing swords in France, he told his master Mr.Eto that the most of clients were ordering acid (Gunto) polish. 
Mr.Eto told him not to do it. but, If he doesn't do it, he has no job, so he was doing it.
When people in the west start to see and collect Japanese swords was after WW2 and 60'.
so, those polishing style became kind of standard of Japanese sword polishing said mr.Eto.
When I came to the Netherlands and jointed NL Tokenkai in 1995.
I saw many acid polished blades in their collection.
I understand why it is so popular, because, you can see clearly activities of Hamon and damascus style of Ji-hada that make looks wild and fancy.
but, those are not what we should see. you will miss real actives and beauty of old steel.

Modern Polish with Kanahada-nugui and Hadori polish is called "Kesho-togi" after Hon-ami Ringa established in Meiji period.
the name "Kesho" is meaning of "(cosmetically) make up", so, some people says "I don't like too much make up on lady's face. so are swords. but, we don't want to see acid on lady's face...
 
I had some NMB member who were asking Modern sashikomi polish,
so, I tried to explain the fact, but, he didn't want to listen or think about it. Every time I try to tell him, he keep changing subject or run away from the conversation.
and he sent me a copy of some book of Japanese sword polishing.
"Because it wont state they use acid in the book"
and
"I am curious about the polishing process but i have nothing to win or lose regardless of what methods the polishers use.
Just interesting information."
said him.
That was the last word I hear from him.
 
Mr.Eto told me that it doesn't help if I try to tell people.
If I(we) don't do acid polish, people will go to someone who does it. and the polisher doesn't need to tell their clients how they do polish, they don't need to tell their secrets. the craftsmen does work how their clients wants. They have to earn money to live.... 
Many swords won't survive next 100 years. 
When the level of collector's eyes/demand goes down, the quality of craftsman's work also goes down.
If the owner of the sword wish high quality work and if he has eyes, the craftsman must work with his level, unless he doesn't get a job.
 
Judging/choosing by own liking without knowledge and understanding or just following market principle are very dangerous.
This kind of mentality will destroy Japanese sword in the future. 
Putting tomato ketchup on Italian dishes or mayonnaise in sushi and say "Because I like it" is fine. but, acid on sword is not okay.
I can not explain too much details on public, because it might harm someone's business, but, I am trying to explain to our clients with private mail.
 
The sword has long life but it is only with proper care by people.

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#11 Brian

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 01:16 PM

Brilliant article :clap: :clap: :clap:


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#12 Jean

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 02:33 PM

I entirely agree with Kunitaro san.
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#13 SAS

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:38 PM

Agreed. I think one reason people want this kind of polish is that the sword will photograph well, and in fact i read somewhere that some polishers use acid etched hamon to photo and then redo the finish polish for delivery. This can be seen as a destructive sales practice. I have used weak acids such as lemon juice and vinegar on my own self forged blades to help see the hamon on modern steel, which is then polished out; on a Japanese blade with a good hamon, this step is unnecessary. Some have been accused meritlessly not long ago of using acid on a sword which has a particularly good hamon contrast; as I said, this would be unnecessary. Shortcuts and preservation are mutually antagonistic.......thank you for your words, Kunitaro-san.


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#14 Greg F

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 04:09 AM

Well said Kunitaro san! Japanese sword preservation and traditions should always be more important than short cuts for visual effects! All the best.

Greg
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#15 Shamsy

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 06:52 AM

As I hear time and again (and completely agree with ), we are the temporary custodians of these swords. With proper care they should last nearly indefinitely. I cannot understand the reasoning behind doing something for your immediate pleasure, but jeopardising it for the future. A selfish and shortsighted approach, hopefully from ignorance as opposed to indifference.
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#16 Fuuten

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 06:02 PM

Using acid for polishing Japanese sword is not good for preservation as we know.


The sword has long life but it is only with proper care by people.

 

Fantastic and detailed post. Are you still living in the Netherlands (Amsterdam)? You must be a great teacher :thumbsup:


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