Kai-Gunto Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Beware......its a fake. http://www.ebay.com/itm/121791503641?ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F4%252F0%252F8%253Feecl%253D1%2526eesi%253DGBH%2526i%253D1adb42fe1edII155e4II67855dII1adb42fdf4fII2%2526eepc%253D%252F121791503641%2526bu%253D43179291199%2526segname%253DB128E7C-00%2526crd%253D20151022051548%2526emParams%253Di%2526sojTags%253Demid%25253Dbu%25252Csegname%25253Dsegname%25252Ccrd%25253Dcrd%2526srcrot%253D0%2526rvr_id%253D0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordGuyJoe Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 When I first read the title I thought, "We could make this post multiple times a day!", since eBay is littered with these things. Thanks for the heads up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kai-Gunto Posted October 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Joe , Your right. The decription in the auction is Bull .... and fools some people. The sword still have a lot of issues, it still is one of the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Sorry, but it is an authentic NCO gunto. Maybe someone has painted it an odd colour. If it claims to be a real copper hilted NCO gunto, you can see the aluminium coming through and the drag / chape is wrong for a copper hilt. The knot band (sarute / lanyward loop) is right, the (kokura arsenal) markings are right, the bohi / blade groove is not too far from the habaki. It is authentic, but not copper hilted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kai-Gunto Posted October 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Its a fake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 +2 No doubt, look at the Kissaki, the wobbly bohi and how it ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordGuyJoe Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 +3 - Look at the bohi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamsy Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 That sword is so obviously fake a quick glance in any book should alert even the newest purchaser. Someone will be sadly disappointed. Maybe best not to list all of the errors, but the kissaki and stamping are enough to make me cringe. I can see... 7 errors in a quick glance. One so obvious I'm surprised no one mentioned it yet. The screw. Please no one elaborate on that. The Chinese do read these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1 Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 funny how he mentions the low serial number, but it not even low enough number to be a copper handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Gaijin Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 The giveaway for me is how deeply indented each the stamps are on the Fuchi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Sorry to stand alone in the crowd, but I am 100% certain that this is an authentic NCO shin gunto. If it were a fake, there would be identical examples from Chinese sellers. Show me one! I would love to know that you are all correct, as I could then make myself immune to them. But, when you look for Chinese seller examples, make sure what they are selling conforms to the following tests (which the cited US seller offering on eBay does); 1) The sarute loop should rest upon the ridges of the kabuto-kane (pommel cap); fakes extend past this (the US ebay example is correct). 2) The arsenal stamps are correct - you debate they are too newly struck, but they are correct (often the arsenal stamp opn the blade is the wrong way up, but the US eBay seller example is correct). 3) The bohi groove should not be too far from the habaki; the US seller example is the correct distance. Again, I am certain the cited eBay NCO shin gunto is 100% authentic, albeit someone has painted the tsuka. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kai-Gunto Posted October 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Sorry to stand alone in the crowd, but I am 100% certain that this is an authentic NCO shin gunto. If it were a fake, there would be identical examples from Chinese sellers. Show me one! I would love to know that you are all correct, as I could then make myself immune to them. But, when you look for Chinese seller examples, make sure what they are selling conforms to the following tests (which the cited US seller offering on eBay does); 1) The sarute loop should rest upon the ridges of the kabuto-kane (pommel cap); fakes extend past this (the US ebay example is correct). 2) The arsenal stamps are correct - you debate they are too newly struck, but they are correct (often the arsenal stamp opn the blade is the wrong way up, but the US eBay seller example is correct). 3) The bohi groove should not be too far from the habaki; the US seller example is the correct distance. Again, I am certain the cited eBay NCO shin gunto is 100% authentic, albeit someone has painted the tsuka. :-) Are You the seller? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Gaijin Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Take a look at the crispness of the Fuchi and the stampings here: http://ohmura-study.net/792.html Also, didn't the original Type 95 Copper Tsuka only have one secure screw at the Kabuto Gane? The secondary screw where one would expect a mekugi ana, was added on the later Aluminium Tsuka models. Also, looking at the extreme close up of the Fuchi area shows something weird, like a verdigris coloured waxy substance has been added in the areas of the Itomaki casting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAXBLISS888 Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 For comparison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul griff Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Hello Mark, It's a dreadful fake ,from the heavy patina finish to the hilt,the overspray onto the scabbard throat and the recently added file damage again to the throat. The list could go on and on but must admit they are getting better . Thanks to Thomas for alerting any potential buyers. Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Are You the seller? Nope. I am not in the USA for one. And the arguments for it being a repro are currently based on the "freshness" of the stampings plus the addition of colour / wax. I agree, the gunto has been coloured, and if it is being sold as an early copper hilted gunto, it is not (look at the for sale listings on this very forum and you will see someone is selling an authentic copper hilted NCO and you will see immediately the saya chape is different). But, again, the tests for a repro are a) the sarute loop size, b) the distance from the bohi to the habaki, c) whether the arsenal stamp on the blade is the correct way up, and d) the stamps on the fuchi. Regarding the example cited on eBay, it passes all four tests; it is authentic, 100%, but someone has coloured it, that is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Hello Mark, It's a dreadful fake ,from the heavy patina finish to the hilt,the overspray onto the scabbard throat and the recently added file damage again to the throat. The list could go on and on but must admit they are getting better . Thanks to Thomas for alerting any potential buyers. Paul. Sorry Paul, but none of these things show the item is a repro; you are refering to cosmetics (paint, damage) not facits of the sword itself.. OK, so someone has painted it at some stage. The sword itself is authentic. I would not pay that price for it, but I would happily buy it as authentic and then use paint stripper / nail varnish remover / acectone (whichever is appropriate) to remove the later embelishment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul griff Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Hello Mark, It's good that contentious subjects arise on the board for in my case it gets me back in the books . And as Shamsy highlighted the fakers make good use of the information divulged . I have only been collecting shin-gunto for about twenty five years and find myself still learning but looking at the contributors to the post I would estimate hundreds of years of collecting experience and value their input. FAKE on all counts. Paul... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kai-Gunto Posted October 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Mark....The things You point out that looks right ,its more a rule, dosnt mean its genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Mark....The things You point out that looks right ,its more a rule, dosnt mean its genuine. If you can find one Chinese seller with a NCO shin gunto on eBay conforming to these rules, I would genuinely like to see it. For me, specification and detail is everything; paint and damage mean nothing to me (the number of painted / varnished swords I buy at bargain prices and strip the paint / varnish off - actually, these often turn out to be great condition swords, as the paint / varnish protects them - the Victorians particularly used varnish to protect metal objects such as swords, so varnish is a good sign of a sleeper). I have absolutely no doubt that the eBay gunto is authentic, but recently "enhanced", and I do have a lot of experience of handling NCO guntos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 well its been pulled from ebay, so the seller must be lurking around here, No matter how you have conceived your self Mark, its a copy, plane and simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 No matter how you have conceived your self Mark It has not been pulled as you claim. If you cast aspersions Stephen, it is best to have substance. I came onto this thread with good intentions and experience of NCO guntos. I quoted specific areas of reproduction failings, and all you have said is that the stampings look fresh and about the paint also being fresh; the later I have confirmed and which is purely cosmetic and does not change the sword underneath. The gunto is authentic. If I am wrong, do not cast aspersions at me, go onto eBay and find me one Chinese seller with an NCO pattern gunto that has the correct sarute loop size (where it rests on the ridge of the pommel, not extends past it), the correct distance from the bohi to the habaki, and the correctly orientated arsenal markings. I will wager that you can not find one that is the same as the US seller's. So, with all due respect, it is authentic, plain and simple until you come up with substance, not aspersion. PS I believe he has varnished it, based on the discoloration of the menuki screw / retainer. PPS He does claim it is an early copper grip version, which is false, you only have to look at the chape / drag to see that. It is a bulk standard (though 100% authentic) NCO shin gunto, plus the serial number is way too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 link didnt work this AM said removed, I did not state any of the statements my only post is +1, so where do you come up with all that? As for the copper handle in for sale section, dont know where you get off saying im attaching you. I m leaving you alone as Brian has enough on his plate in his personal life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kai-Gunto Posted October 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 The lock clip attachtmeant is to high on the tsuka and the lock clip is to thin. The seppas are poorly done. The shape of the fuchi is wrong....I could go on.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Forget the koshirae which has many errors, the blade itself is just plain wrong. Once the chinese learn to make bo-hi/a kissaki that doesn't look absolutely awful then there may be something to worry about but not until then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 As was said before, best not be too explicit on the errors as the Chinese read here and learn quickly. That said, i know jack voodoo about these gunto and i can spot the errors quite obviously. That you can't, Mark, ought to make you wonder. (PS autospell is very irritating but sometimes amusing) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brannow Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 Mark, I have owned several of these over the years. The one on ebay is a fake. One only has to look at the poorly cut grooves in the blade to know this. The serial number and arsenal marks are wrong. The handle on the sword looks decent (still not original) but the rest is typical poor copy of an original. I hope these photos will help clear up any confusion. Bill Rannow www.artswords.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamsy Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 The copper handle sells for about $20 from China which can be added to any real type 95 second pattern with an aluminum handle. They obviously found a real second pattern aluminum 95 and began copying it. They made an appearance on ebay not long ago in number. We have established beyond doubt it's not a copper handle though, so looking at it as a potential second pattern 95... The saya is an obvious repro with incorrect stamping and proportions. Paint has been covered, enough said. The sarute is correct for an aluminum handle, and the handle itself with the tsuba are fairly good. Fuchi stamps look wrong though. It's also got what looks like wood stain all over it. The blade has a Chinese kissaki. Very ill defined and ugly. The Grove can actually be in two distinct styles depending on arsenal, but this one is given away by being too wide. The serial numbers look pretty good. As has bee noted by several leading experts on Japanese gunto, it's becoming harder to distinguish between real and repro swords, especially type 95 which are all machine made. At best, this is a sword constructed with a mix of obviously Chinese and real parts, at worst the Chinese have improved some of the aspects of type 95 repro. A word of caution to newer collectors: the catch cry for fake swords used to include the words 'ancient, antique and sharp'. People have caught on and now it seems 'estate find, vet bring back, war trophy' are the new catch cry for questionable swords. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonely panet Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 I still cant understand all the fuss over the type 95's of any version. finding a type 32 with matching numbers under 10,000 is by far a rarer item. they have seen more combat us over a larger area, and have a some what good reputation for a machine made blade for combat use. the type 95's didn't fare well over time, becoming loose, the wodden core in the tsuka rotted easly, and frankly the quality can vary different from sword to sword. so why such silly prices? the poor type 32 was so durable it was sent back to the armory to be refitted and re-issued, regards H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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