Discussing dealers

[katanako]

Hi Brian,

I am a new comer and love your message board. There are many knowledgeable people out there and I can get instant feedback. Of course, they are not all experts but I appreciate their time giving me answers.

I have met some collectors who have been taken advantage of or outright cheated. Is it kosher to mention the unscrupulous person by name (i.e., John Smith, Tommy Gunn, Billy Klub, Harry P. Ness, etc.) if I have been personally screwed by the person? I think we all would like to know who is screwing who.

A case in point. I went to the Northern California Sword Show last year and bought a beautiful wak from YY. I told him that I was a novice collector, but was most proud of a sword I bought from an Oklahoma dealer. It was a pristine gunto made by XXX. And YY said, "Really?! I had a XXX which I sent to (SOB) and he never paid me for it!

When I returned home, I checked into my file folder and the paperwork related to this sword. I called YYand asked him when he sent his sword to this dealer. He told me the month. And low and behold, it was only a couple of weeks after he sent it, that I boughtit! There was no doubt that the sword he described was the one I had bought from the Mr. SOB

I was extremely angry because I hate to see guys cheated. I told YY that if he plans to go to take this to court, I will write him a check for $1000. My offer still stands.

Now, wouldn't you guys like to know the guy's name? Or can you figure it out. Can the guy sue me if I post his name? Or should I just use his initials?

Are most of you shy about mentioning a crooked dealer's name? I'm sure that if the guy is honest, you'd say so. Perhaps a "NO COMMENT!!!"

would tell me alot without getting us in trouble?

 

 

 

HENRY

[Brian]

Henry,

 

That is a very difficult question to answer for obvious reasons.

This forum has never steered clear of controversy and takes the view that if there is fraud or underhanded dealings going on, they need to be exposed.

However there is always a fine line between facts and libel.

I think that for an incident to be reported, it would have to be researched and proven beyond doubt.

Then the accuser would have to provide his name and some info about himself, as accusations from anonymous people are probably a recipe for disaster.

Some forums do not tolerate the negative side of dealings, however it is an important part of collecting.

In this case, you would probably have to have decent proof that the sword is the same one, and the dealer who sold it without payment would also have to have his side personally noted.

 

Sometimes it is worth posting a message asking if anyone has dealt with XYZ dealer before, and how reputable they are in the reader's opinion. Sometimes people can give enough of a reply to allow us to steer clear.

 

The problem comes in when someone accuses someone of something, and then there are a flood of posts from people saying that love that dealer, he is a great guy....etc etc. What then?

 

I guess it comes down to a case-by-case basis. If you would like to pm me the details of the dealers, I can see if he has a reputation for this, and see what we can post publicly. Libel threats are not fun, and we have been through them before. But for it to be libel, it has to be NOT true, which is why the facts have to be presented beyond any doubt.

 

I'd be interested in any comments other users here may have on a situation like this.

 

Brian

[Henry Wilson]

The Henry above is not me. I am Henry Wilson in Tokyo, the one with

[remzy]

I would totaly post the names of sellers that screwed me over just as much as i post the names of sellers that i had good business with!

 

I guess it boils down to preserving your credibility, even in a "virtual" world, credibility is very important, so this is why someone who post names out of libels all the time as Brian stated, will not be taken seriously.

 

Im pro-judgment and anti repression (might not be the right word there), this means that i am for people making their own judgmenst and not "banning" a behaviors based on the fact that people cannot make their own opinions.

 

Then again, only my two pesos...

Remy

[katanako]

Hi Brian and all,

 

I understand your situation and agree that there is a fine line. Perhaps it might be better if we used the following method:

 

Me: Does anyone on this board had dealings with SOB?

John: PM me!

Dave: PM me!

Roger: PM me!

Larry: No comment!

Lester: No comment!

Jim: ABSOLUTELY NO COMMENT!

Mike: Call me!!!

 

Would this method get the message across without libel or slander? Personal communication is protected and we are free to discuss a particular dealer through personal emails and phone calls. If I had been screwed, I would certainly call across country to make certain that he isn't victimized.

 

Since there is another Henry in Tokyo, I will sign this with:

 

HENRY IN USA

[Brian]

No need to set a firm policy here.

There are many people that have posted a msg here saying "if anyone has had any dealings with XXXX then please drop me a pm or email"

You are welcome to do that anytime.

Or you can post that you have had some disturbing dealings with Mr XXX and would like to know what other's opinions are.

I would just caution about direct accusations unless you have concrete facts, and if you do, they are welcome here as long as they are written to inform and explain, and not directly slander.

Lots of ways to approach things like this without causing a major blowout.

Use common sense and discression where appropriate, and all should be fine.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Bob M.]

Hello Henry in USA,

 

I appreciate how you feel - I have had similar problems myself , although not in the nihonto world ( perhaps more by luck than judgement ) - but would advise caution with this . From your posting , it would appear that the dealings you have had with both gentlemen have been satisfactory to you , the 'dispute' being between them and not at this stage involving you - the unsuspecting third party . It will probably be counter productive to 'take sides ' and make any possible libellous comment at this stage. There can be all sorts of plausible reasons put forward for non payment that really are subject to the agreement and trading between the dealers concerned .

The saying of 'let the buyer beware' also applies to arrangements made between dealers - if you let another person have a valuable item such as a sword without being paid for it up front , then you better be sure that you can trust them .

Of course , should any claim be made upon the sword that you have purchased in good faith , then you may become a party to an unsatisfactory and possibly fraudulent deal and , circumstances having changed , stating of the facts and the identities of those involved might be a consideration .

Good Luck with it !

[nagamaki - Franco]

when you go to an ocean beach it is not unusual to encounter warning signs such as caution "sharks" or "jelly fish" found in these waters. I always wondered why the same signs weren't posted outside of nihonto show sales rooms in the US.

[Brian]

Franco,

 

I think that's because the sign belongs outside our front door...the minute you step outside you are exposing yourself to sharks in every aspect of daily life :D

Take those private collectors who go to estate sales and say to the little old lady "Ah...just an old junk sword from the war...look at all that rust on the tang, I'll give you $100 to take it off your hands" LOL.

Buyer beware..in every aspect of our daily lives.

 

Brian

[katanako]

Thanks Brian, Bob, and all!

Yes, I was a third party to that transaction. And yes, I did take sides.

I will take your comments and apply a bit of common sense which I sometimes lack.

Thanks again.

 

HENRY USA

[Bungo]

" Take those private collectors who go to estate sales and say to the little old lady "Ah...just an old junk sword from the war...look at all that rust on the tang, I'll give you $100 to take it off your hands" LOL."

 

may be he's bragging but years ago I heard this story from another sword list.

This old timer( a nice guy in California, since retired and disappeared !! ) went to a yard sale,saw a tsuba, then gut feeling told him to ask the lady if she has a Japanese sword.

Lo und behold, she does !!

Ask her to name a price which is ridiculously low ( something like 50 bucks ).......he talked it down to 25 ( somewhere like that ).

In nice fittings, good condition too..............

 

Now that's capitalism with a BIG C, THE American way.

But of course there's other people on the message bd. think if they found the same deal and if they later sell the sword at a profit, they will actually send a percentage to the lady.

Whatever..............

p.s. nobody send me any extra $ yet from the tsuba sales.....may be I charged too much :D :D

milt the ronin

[kaien]

It may indeed be capitalism and a shrewd person, but I firmly believe in Karma and would not want to trade mine with that persons. As for the situation in this thread I don't understand why you are even getting this involved. If this guy really never got paid then he has an excellent case against this other gentleman. I don't understand why he hasn't gone to the authorities yet, or why he gave merchandise to this other dealer without being paid first? There is 3 sides at least to every story, his, the other guys, and the truth. No matter what, you were presumably treated fairly by this guy and really have no beef yourself, so you should absolutely use caution posting anything negative about that dealer unless it pertains directly to your transaction with him.

[katanako]

Hi kaien,

 

You have a point. However, I hate people who take advtange of others.

Yes, I was treated right and the dealer did not screw me.

Yes indeed, there are two sides to the story and I know both. My guy who got screwed sent me emails from the dealer, admitting that he owed him $$$ and that he will get around to paying him...taking legal action is the last straw and you know how expensive lawyers are. The big problem is that my guy is in Idaho and the dealer is out of state.

The dealer wasn't always bad...gradually, he started to get a bad reputation because of taking consignments and then giving excuses...

I don't like doing business with dirty dealers or sellers. That's just the way I am.

 

HENRY USA

[Brian]

I have been provided with the dealer's details and the emails showing acknowledgement of the debt.

Because this is between 2 dealers who are trying to work out the details, are not part of the forum, and there has been no legal opinion yet, I am not going to publicise the dealer in question here. I believe this was also brought up on another forum.

However I do urge the dealers to sort this out for the benefit of the community.

If there is a lack of funds to sort out the matter, then the dealer should offer other stock Nihonto as surety until the matter is dealt with.

Otherwise if there is really no other option, then legal action should be taken. Out of state should not pose too much problem.

 

Be careful of consignment and any item transfer without payment. It is simply not a good idea unless you are willing to take the risk or know the dealer personally.

 

Brian

[kaien]

Hi kaien,

 

You have a point. However, I hate people who take advtange of others.

Yes, I was treated right and the dealer did not screw me.

Yes indeed, there are two sides to the story and I know both. My guy who got screwed sent me emails from the dealer, admitting that he owed him $$$ and that he will get around to paying him...taking legal action is the last straw and you know how expensive lawyers are. The big problem is that my guy is in Idaho and the dealer is out of state.

The dealer wasn't always bad...gradually, he started to get a bad reputation because of taking consignments and then giving excuses...

I don't like doing business with dirty dealers or sellers. That's just the way I am.

 

HENRY USA

 

that makes things more clear and I can definitely understand why you feel that way. Just be careful, laws seem to protect criminals more than honest people.