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Goto Ichijo Tsuba Opinion Wanted


Timur

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Hello, 


 


I am a novice on your respectful Forum Board, please don't judge too harshly. 


Originally placed this in Goto Ichijo thread but was friendly told not to expect a reply in 5 year old thread  :o So start a new one...


 


Was offered this tsuba by (?) Goto Ichijo. The seller is asking for quite a bit. Would appreciate your expert opinion if it looks genuine for you? 


 


 


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I readily bow to the expertise of those NMB members much more knowledgeable than I, but love your tsuba. My only question would be the brightness of the plate, and wonder about its patination; or is this just the excessive light reflection in your photograph?

 

John L.

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Thank you, John,

 

It's not mine yet. The seller says it is of copper mixed with a quarter of silver and gold. 7,6 x 7,1 x 0,4 cm

Still not sure by the photos if it is genuine and can be attributed to Goto Ichijo. The price is genuine for sure!

Any thoughts?

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Timur; my thought is that the alloy the tsuba is made of is called Shibuichi. More than that, I don't know much, except to say that I like it too, though my degree of liking might be influenced by the price.

 

[edit to add another thought: There appears to be some wear to the surface patina, evident at lower left of your pic where the reddish copper colour is showing through. and this leads again to the thought of the price, but maybe it's just an artifact of the lighting]

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This is my mantra:  BIG name + BIG price - but - no modern NBTHK paper = no sale.  If it was genuine, the seller would have had it papered as proof of legitimacy.   As it is not papered, the seller has no back up on the mei.  Tough words I know but they may very well save you a bundle, especially since you have admitted you have little experience.

 

PS:  for what it's worth to me it doesn't look like anything close to Ichijo's craftsmanship and I don't want to hear about 'school work' either.  That's all rubbish.

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Thanks everybody for your thoughts and opinions.

I will definitely request the certificate if any - thank you, Pete!

At the moment there is an info that there are some papers from the previous owner stating that he bought it on Ginza Street at a specialty shop for 1.500.000 yen in 1991. Which was approximately $11.500 those days by the way.

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I am pretty sure this is a copy in silver - the original was Shakudo

Look closely at the "plugs" - are they part of the piece or different metal inserted?

 a nice paperweight but not at that price...

mho

-t

Thank you, Toryu, the "plugs" are different metal inserted. Will keep updated as soon as will get the reply from the seller.

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Found this.. - for reference.

 

 

Nice one Barrie, I was (unsuccessfully) looking for that very reference when this thread was started. All comments about papering aside, the workmanship on the piece in question just isn't what one should expect from Goto Ichijo. I'd steer clear of this one.

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Valery,

 

At the time being, no one in Japan is going to buy such tsuba without a certificate from NBTHK/NTHK. Papers issued by the previous owner are useless.

Dear Jean,

 

Thank you for your reply! 

 

- "No one in Japan" - does it mean that it could be sold/bought in this price range in the Western market? Say at an auction like Bonham's or Christie's?

 

- "such a tsuba" - did you mean that there are some tsuba say more obvious for connoisseurs which do not need a certification to buy? Even in this price range?

 

- I don't recall any tsuba on Wrangam Sales in London coming with an origami. How does it work - experienced connoisseurs take a risk buying expensive sword fittings and later apply for certification in Japan? Or they just don't usually buy expensive tsuba without origami? As an example 

 

Sorry if my questions are too naive, my main collecting field is another type of Japanese Art with no certification involved...

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Big names with big prices=certificates. Will you buy a Rembrandt without a certificate? Now for experts (you are not one you said it), some unpapered items are worth the purchase but not in the case of the item is sold at full value without any certificate. Buy it under the condition it passes shinsa otherwise ask for a full refund. This statement to be legalized otherwise you can sit on it...

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I live in Japan. It is my 5th year here. I see things coming out of the woodwork all the time. More often than not the seller knows little to nothing about the items they have. I have not purchased a single item with papers. I have in turn submitted many items that achieved T. Hozon. BUT I have a rather large library and can speak some Japanese. So the point I would like to make is; yes there are gems out there, but you must know what you are looking at. The above Tsuba is obviously Gimei IMHO

Jim

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Here is an example of an Goto Ichijo from the Tsuba Shusei -Nakamura 1963 with the exact same mon stamp used on the piece in question. I think the craftsmanship actually is spot on for other papered and signed pieces in this particular style of his work.

I'm not sure what else you could ask for from a piece in this style. The patina on the shibuichi is worn thin but this could be repaired with little trouble.

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The rest of the page from the same book to show some other examples he did in this style.

 

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Here also is a link to another example without a signature that has been papered. The shape and design is almost identical other than the ground materials and stamps used. Scroll down to see example.

http://www.choshuya.co.jp/1/0805/member_frame_fittings.htm

 

Sometimes I think you must judge a work not on the papers, but the merits and evidence presented by the piece.

I have a feeling that many really great bargains are missed out on because of this way thinking.

Could be a bargain considering what some of his other works go for and to my eye the signature is direct and very convincing.

Cheers,

Marcus

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...but love your tsuba.... John L.

 

At last somebody agrees with me!

 

Lacking both the confidence and the necessary finance, I am reluctant to put my wallet where my mouth is.  But I remain convinced that Valery's tsuba, inscribed RAKU HOKUKYO ICHIJO with Hōgen (汪眼) kao (tn: residing in northern Kyōto), is a later, shoshin work of the master.

 

John L.

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  • 8 months later...

I'm reviving an old thread with a question.  Pete talked about the importance of papers on a big name kodogu piece.  I have a kozuka that is gorgeous and is signed Ichijo.  My study of the mei in the kinko meikan leads me to think it is genuine.  Any advice as to my best option?  Getting fittings papered is almost always not worth the cost, at least the fittings that I have usually ended up with.  In general terms, is the increased value of papers with an Ichijo piece worth the cost, and would you be satisfied with NTHK papers or is NBTHK the only way to go in this case?   I'm a sword guy and just ended up with this piece.  

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My opinion:

1)  Post good pictures here of the kozuka and close up of the mei to get some opinions.  (A number of us will be in Chicago this weekend so be patient).

2)  If it looks worth the investment then submit for both NBTHK Hozon & TB Hozon shinza.  Next one is June then October (you don't have a lot of time to get it there for the June shinsa).

 

Why:  It is my experience that dealers only want to see NBTHK papers ergo obtain what they want to see.  Ichijo was one of the 'TOP' artists of the late Edo period (as in top three/four) so the price difference will go from several hundred without paper to many thousand of dollars with paper (depending upon condition).  I always go for TBH paper on big name as the price difference at sale is worth it.  You have to have Hozon to get TBH but they offer a rate if you submit for both.  If you get Hozon but not TBH there is a submission fee for the TBH shinsa (I think it's around $70) so be aware of that charge.  You will also need an agent to submit to the shinsa as you cannot just send it to them, just as with swords.

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Here's another one of these snowflake tsubas attributed to ichijo that's been running on Yahoo Japan for a while with no takers and little interest after the owner bumped the starting bid up into the ichijo range.  No paper = no sale.....

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

 

http://page3.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/c552130970

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To me this looks like a casting of a legitimate piece. I can't say I know a lot on the subject matter. Tom pointed out the plugs are ridiculous. 

 

The mei though doesn't look like it was put in there, it looks like an impression to me.

 

It isn't out of the question to find something without any papers. My Tomei on my site had no papers when I bought it. Same thing as I always do when it's a big name and has green or no papers, I ask for a Hozon guarantee and I buy from someone I can trust will honor it.

 

In the case of my Tomei no problem, it went to Tokubetsu Hozon. 

 

If you're buying from a collector: your money is gone. It is a rare collector who will refund you even after making the promise. They have nothing to gain by doing so, if you out them for reneging it is your word vs. theirs and in my experience, someone who has crossed you in such a deal has no problem with running around making up other stories. 

 

So, if you like it and you think it's OK, tell them to send it in for papers, you will pay the expenses. If it passes you'll pay for the item and take it, if it fails you will bear the expense of testing it out. 

 

When they say no to this and come up with reasons why they can't do it, you will have all the reasons you need to walk away and find a legit one.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Finally got the piece. Well it is definitely shakudo, neither shibuichi nor casting. Just usual trick of shooting shakudo pieces. Personally I believe in it and probably need to give it for shinsa, never did it. Need i?

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Valery,

 

this is same problematic like with mine here: see Great Kinko Tsuba F.S. in Sales section...

I do want to sell it....however after getting news by a fellow board member that the Kanji in Grasswriting do read Goto Ichijo...i immediately got very sceptic and stopped the sale (least the official one / those who still can live to buy a eventual gimei may go further...?)

 

Goto Ichijo is a BIG Name!

everybody does know- Big names attract Big Fakers!

 

i did inquire further- and my actual standpoint, i think, is 100% legitimate:

 

as long a Big Name is not certified by NBTHK- it is to ben seen as Gimei!

it is only Soshin IF it has NBTHK certification!

 

Christian

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It's more that without the papers, the big name needs to be seen with skepticism. Someone who owns one such thing but refuses to paper it feeds the skepticism. One who owns it and tries to sell it for big dollars is pouring gasoline on the fire of skepticism. 

 

If they really believe they can get the paper and then they can get the price they want for it without a problem. That they instead pound away trying to sell with no support on a big name, it shows really that they don't truly believe it. 

 

I always tell them, get Hozon and come back to me with it. Nobody ever did. Tells me they all knew already it was junk. 

 

In this world if something stinks, it's up to the owner to resolve the stink. If he can resolve it the stink goes away and it can go to the market and do well. If he doesn't want to resolve the stink, he can get only a small price from the next guy who now inherits the stink and the chore of resolving it. 

 

This is why the guys with huge names and no papers and these guys who have experience, have no good reason to sell it like that. There's only one, that it's no good.

 

Buy these things for sure, but get a guarantee from the owner that you get it returned if it fails papers. Then you also get to find out how honest he is. Guys selling fakes for profits will generally find a way to get out of their promise to take yours back. 

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