Is This Japanese Made Shinsakuto? Or Production Blade?

[gauze3539]

Hi. I bought off a bare blade from the ebay that supposedly be a shinsakuto. But while I am looking at the blade, i really need someones help to figure out what it is. It's suguha hamon and shows very strong jihada pattern just like production ones but I have no idea . So what do you guys think? Is this production? Or Japanese made shinsakuto? I don't feel like seeing any nie nioe activity? Thank you very much.

 

Jason

[SwordGuyJoe]

Just my opinion, but it looks like one of the many "gendaito" blades sold on eBay by Komonjo.  Here's the link: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/11762-its-raining-gendaito/

 

There's a lot of speculation about the validity of the blades.  

[Kai-Gunto]

Dont like the yasurime and the shinogi line on the nakago. I think china.

[dig1982]

Sorry but very suspicious blade. Strange jihada and boshi...shinogi line is not straight in the nakago...

[SAS]

Tip of kissaki is off as well. Not a National Treasure but maybe ok for martial arts.

[gauze3539]

Ok. Thank you guys. The return is the answer. I bought as Japanese made shinsakuto and the listing photos were really like a shinsakuto. Thanks.

 

Jason

[gauze3539]

Just my opinion, but it looks like one of the many "gendaito" blades sold on eBay by Komonjo. Here's the link: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/11762-its-raining-gendaito/

 

There's a lot of speculation about the validity of the blades.

I think what Komozo sells is better than this...... Lol

 

Jason

[gauze3539]

Tip of kissaki is off as well. Not a National Treasure but maybe ok for martial arts.

I thought about it but the cost of making koshirae and habaki for this blade is no obviousely ridiculous. So it cannot even be used as just martial arts. Ah.

[gauze3539]

Tip of kissaki is off as well. Not a National Treasure but maybe ok for martial arts.

I thought about it but the worth vs cost of making koshirae and habaki for this blade is now obviousely so ridiculous. So now to me this purchase became worse than just buying a hanwei katana .

[Kam A]

I thought about it but the worth vs cost of making koshirae and habaki for this blade is now obviousely so ridiculous. So now to me this purchase became worse than just buying a hanwei katana .

For what it is worth I think it is chinese but you did better with this than those hanwei blades. . . I agree the nakago is a bit of a mess and the hada is common on china blades. . . . . . . but we also had a thread were this type of hada was discussed and a number of Japanese smiths that used it.

Some of the blades comming out of china are extremely well made and at the risk of destabilizing someones perception of the world I would say that many are structually supperior to the muji hada poor sugata shinsakuto being sold for Iaido and tameshigiri in Japan.  

 

Kam

[Kam A]

I thought about it but the worth vs cost of making koshirae and habaki for this blade is now obviousely so ridiculous. So now to me this purchase became worse than just buying a hanwei katana .

The cost of a Koshirae is high(approx $1500 for MA quality) but then a proper made Koshirae is structually sound so therefor a whole lot safer than the mass produced rubbish currently available and the quality visually apparent.

Through the years I have seen sooo many Hanwei, cheness and last legend katana. . all have extremely poor koshirae with some being a bit better than others. Personally I would never use one of these blades in the Koshirae they come in.

. . . also something to think about (I think about this often) is how much is a fair price? I remember in the 80's all we had was thin stainless steel in a shape suggesting a katana from spain with plastic handles or alluminium blades (iato) from Japan but with better quality Koshirae. A Stainless Toledo steel Katana could sell back then for $800. Now we can get carbon steel with correct geometry and a true hamon. . . . I think we are becomming a little bit "entitled" with our expectations and how much we think is a fair price.

A good Koshirae is time consuming and quality materials expensive so it is only natural that the cost should reflect this expense. . . . . but even then I have had clients with extremely deep pockets winge about price and make unrealistic demands.

I guess it comes down to the old saying you get what you pay for

 

KAM

[gauze3539]

What i meant by Hanwei was not to put them down at all but rather I meant I could get a Hanwei one as full koshirae set with habaki because the blade was about less that 1G. So you mean you do possibly see this blade could been made by a real Japanese smith? Do you have any photo example of Japanese smith Jihada like this? I would be great if you have any . That sounds make me all of the suddent interesting about this blade. It's strange blade because I feel it's well made and even yokote line looks so clear. If I compare it to my hozon to, i really don't see nie nioi activity. Kissaki off might be shown due to the light reflection but it's straight and seems good.

[Kam A]

What i meant by Hanwei was not to put them down at all but rather I meant I could get a Hanwei one as full koshirae set with habaki because the blade was about less that 1G. So you mean you do possibly see this blade could been made by a real Japanese smith? Do you have any photo example of Japanese smith Jihada like this? I would be great if you have any . That sounds make me all of the suddent interesting about this blade. It's strange blade because I feel it's well made and even yokote line looks so clear. If I compare it to my hozon to, i really don't see nie nioi activity. Kissaki off might be shown due to the light reflection but it's straight and seems good.

Hi

You may have missed the follow up post regarding koshirae in which I have covered these points.

Personally I strongly suspect this is chinese made but reasonably well and as a bonus with a Kesho polish . . . It is what it is

As for smiths that used this style Hada, the 2 commonly referenced is Ikkansai Yoshihiro and WW2 smith Amahide. There were many more but these 2 will keep you busy.

 

Kam

[gauze3539]

Just took some more pics under the sun light. Is this the right jihada some Japanese smith use you' mentioned? Very curious. Thank you very much. I have a Brian Tscenrnega appointment for this summer so I wanted a blade to make a full koshirae. in your opinion Kam, would it be worth to spend about 2G to make koshirae for this blade for a practical sword? Have all the fittings. Or you would return it & buy a cheap real Japanese made shinsakuto and do the new koshirae?

 

Jason

[Kam A]

Hi Jason

 

I think the question is do you think spending 2G on a koshirae for any blade that you want to use for Iai/batto?

I have expensive tastes but I am very practical so for me I would have no qualms spending the money on quality Koshirae for a Martial arts Blade.  Would I select the blade accordingly?. . . most definately. Does it have to be Japanese made? . . No.

I recently had a client spend over 2G having a mono steel blade mounted in a Koshirae. . . mind you this blade is now able to be used under duress and safely used in the field over long periods without concern. . . in this instance the client felt his money well spent. Once again we get what we pay for. . . in this case the clients profession dictates a necessity for quality and the price reflects this.

 

Kam

[gauze3539]

Hi. Kam.

You're right. That's why this blade is in dillema. I am sure I would 100% return this unless the seller makes $250-$300 discount from what I paid for $860. Lol. He misreprented this as "genuine gendaito or shinsakuto" . it was my fault I disn't demand more photos and believed him. If it's around 500-600, i am willing to take. yea. There is absolutely no way to spend above 2G for me for this blade. I mean i like it as it is, but yea. I'd rather get a nice Japanese shinsakuto and would do all on it. Thanks.

[gauze3539]

Oh Kam, btw, are you in the restoration business?

[Kam A]

Jason

 

$860. . . paid for the kesho polish (cheap) blade was free, so now you can consider this an OK outcome.

 

Yes to the second question - www.jigokustudios.com.au

 

Kam

[drjoe]

more and more blades like this seem to be popping up on ebay.  the reality is that we really don't know where they're coming from... china's a top suspect, sure, but it's just as possible they could be coming off the "black market" in Japan or god knows where else.

 

usually the tip offs seem to be poorly executed hamon, sloppy yasurimei, and a signed blade that's either obviously gimei or of some unknown smith with no date on the other side.  in most cases however the jigane actually looks quite a bit better than most of the "production" blades coming from china with a much finer hada than one sees in the typical blade coming from a chinese forge.  your hada is a bit more coarse, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not from Japan as has been discussed here.  for example, a forum member currently has a blade for sale on ebay by enomoto sadahito with what many might mistake as a chinese blade by just looking at the hada.

 

but looking at all the different elements, what seems obvious is that these blades are "wrong" in some way.  besides all the things i mentioned, the other tip off is that they're selling for $800, or in some cases even less.  

 

personally, i think that's a reasonable price and a classic example of "you get what you pay for."  

as to whether or not it's worth investing in mounts, that's up to you and what you plan to do with it.  spending $1K or so on production koshirae seems reasonable if you like the blade and realize what it is.

as for returns, i don't see how you're going to get someone to defend whether or not the blade is from Japan or not.  there's really no way of knowing. not to mention that literally speaking it is a "genuine gendaito" and a "shinsakuto."  also, it's signed... did you bother trying to translate the signature and cross-check the mei?  caveat emptor.

 

and finally, why not mention the seller so that we can keep an eye out?

[gauze3539]

Jason

 

$860. . . paid for the kesho polish (cheap) blade was free, so now you can consider this an OK outcome.

 

Yes to the second question - www.jigokustudios.com.au

 

Kam

oh that's good. I shouldve known you earlier. Ah In fact, this blade came off from Au. The seller nicely discounted me another 200. So Now I am very happy with what ever it is. It doesnt matter now if it's china or Japan or russia wherever. I think this itself has its own beauty. I like its masame on ji and mokume swirl on ha. Moreover, this blade feel strong as hell to compare to my other nihontos. Thanks Kam! Without your wisdom, I must've return it . Now I finally have a cutting one that looks better than any other production blade. In the next year, however, I must get a new original Japanese shinsakuto with Choji hamon with some brutal tobiyakis on it Haha. I want exact the original feeling as same as when a samurai received a shinsaku katana from oyakata sama. Lol

[gauze3539]

Hi. Dr. Joe

 

As smilar as your idea, the seller has strongly believed it as Japanese made. However, all the words from here won his belief. The seller refund me 200. He is a very nice seller, in fact the one of the best. I told him if this turn out to be Japanese made in the future, I would repay this amount. Lol.

 

Now I am bery happy with the purchase. Now I want to know if it's maru mono blade or other. Do you have an idea? I'd like to get it mounted as MA quality and use it for the cutting. In a way, I am looking at jigane again and again, the jihada looks pretty too sophisticated to say it's from China. (Personally have never exprienced chinese one) Mokume through out the Ha and masame through the ji. You're right. Jihada seems very finer and interesting fact is that the tightness of it get tighter as of going towards kissaki and lossen towards munemachi smoothly as if it was the smith's intention Theough the entire blade. Is it just coincidence or intention? Also like the mokume patterns well spreads thru the hamon.

I might have to ask a habaki and koshirae for Mr, Heistings and Larman for a good MA koshirae. I have an appointment with Brain Tscenerga in Aug for the habaki for one of my hozons, not sure if he would be willing to do such as this blade . Any other habakishi recommandation? The habaki is the most headache thing here. . Sorry for the crazy questions.

[gauze3539]

also, it's signed... did you bother trying to translate the signature and cross-check the mei? caveat emptor.

 

and finally, why not mention the seller so that we can keep an eye out?

Yes, I just found an interesting fact about the mei. It shown as nobuhide but it resembles with Horii Nobuhide in Hokkaido. Stroke seems pretty confident as if it real one on the other photos. It might be gimei but what do you think? As a Kanji user, to me, the style of stroke, starting point of each stroke, the down forces of each stroke are all very similar.

In fact, I see very fine Nie and nioi activity on this blade so at least it is indicating me now it's from Japan or black market as you said. It is also water quenched. I am keep looking at the blades many days but this blade is too good to be made by someone who is not trained by Japanese tradition. Is it gimei? Thank you.

 

Jason C

[drjoe]

I would think it's gimei, yes.  Japanese smiths don't typically just sign 3 characters with no date and the way the shinogi wanders in the nakago just isn't how these things are done.  also, the yasurimei are very different and the boshi is basically invisible with that polish.  on the other hand, the mystery blades that are showing up which are presumed to be gimei are almost always finished in exactly this fashion.

[SwordGuyJoe]

If you hear hooves pounding in the background, think horse, not zebra (or even unicorn).

[SwordGuyJoe]

It is signed nobuhide saku , but this has nothing to do with any horii blades. Enjoy it for what it is.

[gauze3539]

Thank you. I didn't expected anything of course but it suprises me whoever did the gimei really tried to make it look like the Horii's "Nobuhide" . I can totally tell obviousely.

[Dr Fox]

This seems to demand a marathon of posts.

So just to satisfy me.

Leave out all the other pointers on this blade, and show me other Japanese smiths, who have produced a nakago like this??

[gauze3539]

No. I do not demand to be on the marathone at all. I just came here and ask my curiosity. That's all. I know nakago is off but i believe it cannot be dictated as non Japanese just by the fact of nakago. I remember Dr. Joe earlier told me there are worse-looking nakagos than this on some famouse nihontos. I see many other traditional points while I am looking at the non traditional stuffs at the same time on this blade. It's strange and it's a not good blade but it doesn't mean it was 100% non Japanese by just looking at the nakago. Moreover, I do not have every single example of all nakagos have been produced ever in the Japanese history so I cannot prove you about the photo that is not made in the way in general but at the same time, I also absolutely do not think every single nihonto produced before by Japanese hands has a pefect nakago in because it is just impossible as human nature.

 

Jason

No. I do not demand to be on the marathone at all. I just came here and ask my curiosity. That's all. I know nakago is off but i believe it cannot be dictated as non Japanese just by the fact of nakago. I remember Dr. Joe earlier told me there are worse-looking nakagos than this on some famouse nihontos. I see many other traditional points while I am looking at the non traditional stuffs at the same time on this blade. It's strange but it doesn't mean it was 100% non Japanese by just looking at the nakago. Moreover, I do not have every single example of all nakagos have been produced ever in the Japanese history so I cannot prove you about the photo that is not made in the way in general but at the same time, I also absolutely do not think every single nihonto produced before by Japanese hands has a pefect nakago in because it is just impossible as human nature.

 

Jason

[drjoe]

just to be clear, I did not say anything about worse-looking nakagos on nihonto, and certainly not on shinsakuto.  I did however say that hada like yours sometimes to appear in nihonto.

 

bottom line is yours and others like it are clearly "off," but who knows who made them and where.  it is possible they're coming from Japan, but if so, they're obviously not coming from any above-board legal source.  china is therefore much more likely.

[gauze3539]

Oh. I am very sorry for saying wrong about your statement. But thank you Dr. Joe. Appreciated all the answers. Now I can clearly use it for the tameshigiri w/o any worry.