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Jizai Okimono Collecting And Researching


ken kata

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Is anyone here interested in Japanese Jizai Okimono ? Japanese articulated animal figures?

Id like to start a forum or discussion about Jizai Okimono and the Myôchin Armor Artisans.

I am constantly on the internet searching for Jizai Okimono information and history.

Most of the searches result in "Advertising" stuff, (e-bay, auction sites, etc.)  as, that seems the way my "browser" is programed for. (Is that true?).

The informative sites are mostly for the real, authentic Japanese Jizai Okimono (High end, "Museum Quality").

 

I'm interested in the affordable, entry level articulated Ise Ebi (Spiny Lobster).

 

I see there are three basic models available. The Myôchin Copper alloy (?) Ise Ebi, 

The Myôchin Iron Ise Ebi, and the medium (approx. 13") 

and, Copper Ise Ebi by Hiroyoshi / Hiromi...

 

The Iron and some Copper (I think I've seen one) has two different versions.

The 2nd versions had the raised, pointed Spines on the back, just behind the Head.

The standard, common ones are just the patterns  "Punched out"...

 

Other questions are, like, is the craftsman's real name Hiroyoshi or Hiromi?

Other information, as I would like to learn who he is, and when did he make his artwork.

Is his works really from the 1800's? Or the mid 1900's? (Answered by the question above)

Why does the Kanji signature change from batch to batch.

 

So much to learn..

 

I'm into Japanese Pottery too,  Bizen, Raku, Shigaraki, etc. and Japanese Majolica (is that a conflicting term?)

Life is for learning..... and spending.. I wish I could buy everything.. as,

I love to look and think deeply about everything I love.

Who made it, when was it made, what makes it special, The history of it, what it was or stated it. What did the person feel, what did it take to do it.

How did they achieve their goals. Where it has been, who might have owned it. What did it do and how it may have fit into history. How it affect people.

So many thoughts and values in everything, such as life it's self..

 

Thanks for viewing....

 

Alton Takata :)

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Hi Alton,

 

I picked up a copper ebi a while ago.  I'd add silver to your list of metals used, though I think I've only seen insects done in silver.  There is a collector of these who exhibits at the August show, though he mostly exhibits cloisonné and bonboneri.  He has a book on those two, but don't think one on the okimono.  He's in the US, and might have info you're interest in.  http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Cloisonne-Enamels-Collectors-Reference/dp/0979530318

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I've held one of the really high end dragons, and up close they are mind blowing. There is a very nice collection of them held by a collector in Hong Kong.

They move like they are alive. Dream of owning a decent one, but they cost more than my house.

 

Brian

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The high end of jizai stuff is really wonderful, which means, of course, that the common stuff isnot very interesting at all. It also seems that this market has just gone wild in the past couple of years. I would enjoy a dedicated list, butI think the market has moved way beyond folks like me!

Peter

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm a bit late to the party, but here I am.

I'm probably too poor to collect jizai okimono, but I'm very interested in these articulatef marvels and would love to find good technical readings on the topic.

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I've been following the market on available Copper/Iron Jizai Ise Ebi.

The prices vary between High $200.00s to $700.00+

Some list theirs as Myôchin Hiromi and, theirs,  is from the mid Edo period.

 

It seems  chronologically impossible.   

I also see some list Muneyuki Myochin's works from the 1800's..

Mr. Muneyuki (RIP) passed away a few years ago.

 

Some looks like "Unfinished", as, there is a lot of the design/detail not done on them as the others.

Some are sloppy made.

Most, if not all , have one trait that seems to be intentionally done to each, but, seems as it is a defect..

 

I've noticed other things, but, I do not want to mention, as, it might/will create gossiping.

 

BTW, $350.00 at my site:

 

japancollectables.com

 

 

Thanks for posting/viewing  guys..

 

Alton Takata  :)

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A foolproof way to find out which Japanese antiques are currently popular, is to go to China. When I worked there for 6 weeks recently, the antique shops were full of tetsubin and jizai-okimono. Made last week in Liáo​níng​. I'm sure quite a few of them found their way abroad already. Although the tetsubin were sometimes pretty convincing, the jizai-okimono - more often than not - were crudely made and lacked detail and patina.

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Hello Guido,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I too, have noticed the Tetsubins..

I've been wanting one with Crab designs, but, the Japanese ones cost in the hundreds, if not, thousands of dollars.

 

Then, there are those lower cost ones that look quite like the Japanese ones.

 

Some sellers are honest, and, specify that theirs is from China,

but, some don't want to say or maybe they don't know, and, the price is in the low hundreds.

 

I was going to buy one last week, but, there was the saying  in my mind, "If it's to good to be true, it probably isn't."

 

 

Alton Takata :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Alton,

 

The pieces you mention by Hiromi and Hiroyuki are very common and low quality and I do not believe they were made anywhere close to the Edo period. There are so many low quality pieces on the market now and they're easily spotted with their crude metalwork, thin materials, rough articulation, etc.. Once you've seen and held the high quality examples, you will see and feel the very vast difference. As well, there is a distinct difference between the work produced in iron by the ex-armourers of the Edo period and the pieces in various metals produced by the Meiji-era artisans (many of which are also very high quality).

 

There is a soft cover catalogue produced by the Tokyo National Museum from several years ago in Japanese and a very nice hardcover book in Japanese and English from a few years ago. Let me know if you need more information about these and I can try to provide links for them.

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  • 5 months later...

Hi,

 

Firstly, I think one of the rules for posting here is that you include at least a first name...

 

Your lobster is a nice quality example in bronze, likely from the Meiji period. If it were completely intact, it would be worth $5000-$8000 depending on the maker. With reference to a restoration, I don't know of anyone that specifically handles jizai okimono, but perhaps try contacting Robert Soanes (http://www.katchushi.com). Robert does excellent metal work and I have seen and held the iron karusa menpo that he features on his site and can attest to the quality of his work.

 

I will leave the translation of the signature to the Japanese-reading and speaking members of this forum.

 

Hope this helps.

 

John

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The "signature" is gibberish. And I'm sorry to say that the quality is even worse than most Chinese copies.

 

Hi Guido,

 

In addition to my own collection (which does not include a bronze lobster, I must say), I have handled many jizai okimono and this lobster is far superior to the Chinese copies to which you refer or the numerous and ubiquitous tinny pieces by "Hiromi" or "Myochin" extant. Though certainly not one of the best examples of the genre, the sculpting and articulation is decent as can be seen with the spines, legs and carapace sections. There are much cruder examples out there and I have seen complete bronze pieces sell for at least the amounts that I quoted.

 

John

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  • 2 years later...

I wonder if anyone can provide any useful information on the actual techniques used to create Jizai Okimono creatures. Like how they were constructed, articulated, etc. Particularly interested in snakes and dragons. Information (at least on English) is very limited and is basically copy-pasted on different blogs and posts. I've seen a picture of the page of some book where snake body X-rays were depicted. It was a low quality photo and couldn't determine what book it was from.
To sum up, I am interested in learning the techniques used to build these creatures and will be grateful for any kind of information on this subject.
 

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Hi Sabius,  :)

 You and John (Shogun8) are both looking for a "How it's Made" type site for Jizai okimono ( Articulated Display Objects) Dragon/snake..

I, too, was always interstd in Jizai Okimono.

 

Found this other infomation  just now:

 

 

https://artsandculture.google.com/exhibit/9QKSX9qsa8CjJQ

 

Reposted a photo of my "Low Level" Jizai Isi Ebi (Spiny Lobsters) , and, other Ebi Okimono.

 

Rick, does the parts "Move"? 

Just wondering, as, it looks like a solid casted Lobster.

 

The little paddles are attached with metal rings, not "Jointed". 

If the parts do not move, It is not considered "Jizai"..   Jizai refers to parts that move/adjustable.

LIke Jizai Kage = Adjustable Pot hook . 

No disrespect intended..  :)

Just the "catagory " is different.

If it does move.. = $$$$    :thumbsup:

post-2090-0-35575200-1535733871_thumb.jpg

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Thanks for the response,

you are correct, I am looking for a "how it's made" type of a video, or article. Internet is so vast, one can almost find anything, but it's not the case for Jizai Okimono. :) 
Yes there are several little videos, giving brief overviews, but they are mostly made for more of a general public consumption and are not particularly technical.
Thing is, I have an experience on working with small metal sculptures. Up until this point, my work was mostly somewhat of a steampunk style, here's the octopus that I recently made:

post-4626-0-23500700-1535748070_thumb.jpg

 

I wanted to challenge myself with somewhat of a difficult project in terms of both, esthetics and articulation, which Jizai Okimono sculptures have. And while I am recreating these sculptures I thought I would use traditional techniques4 to articulate them. I have my own ideas on that point, but for the sake of historic accuracy, I was looking for that kind of technical information. Looks like I just have to start and go with my intuition :)

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Hi, 

Maybe this type of Jointery..

I have no idea, just trying to help.

One is friction based,/ interlocking, but, metal would not "snap in like Plastic". so, each metal fitted adjacent piece must be rolled over for "captivtation"..?

The other has a cable or some sort of "spine",  running thru, and/with "adjustable' tention, would dictate the movement/stiffness.?

, but, attaching  the legs, arms and other "protrusions".. mmm  :dunno:

 

You are using the coil over wire for the legs..

same principal... coil over wire is the "skin", wire is the "spine"  :)

 

Please note: I do  not know, I just look and tell what I know,  to help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post-2090-0-96863900-1535755224_thumb.jpg

post-2090-0-64284800-1535755234_thumb.png

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One is friction based,/ interlocking, but, metal would not "snap in like Plastic". so, each metal fitted adjacent piece must be rolled over for "captivtation"..?

 From the photos what I've seen, it doesn't seem that Japanese masters used this technique. 

 

The other has a cable or some sort of "spine",  running thru, and/with "adjustable' tention, would dictate the movement/stiffness.?

This is actually what I've been thinking as well. I've managed to contact someone, who is selling ivory dragon Jizai Okimono and asked the same questions. While I didn't get any pictures of exactly how the pieces were connected, the owner did tell me that some kind of string cord was running through. Now, was the string running in the middle, or were there additional holes in each piece and some kind of loops were made, is still unknown, but I can try several methods of attaching pieces and try which replicates Jizai Okimono best. 

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  • 4 months later...

I wonder if anyone can provide any useful information on the actual techniques used to create Jizai Okimono creatures. Like how they were constructed, articulated, etc. Particularly interested in snakes and dragons. Information (at least on English) is very limited and is basically copy-pasted on different blogs and posts. I've seen a picture of the page of some book where snake body X-rays were depicted. It was a low quality photo and couldn't determine what book it was from.

To sum up, I am interested in learning the techniques used to build these creatures and will be grateful for any kind of information on this subject.

 

Sabius,

Just saw this, and thought of your query...

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/27631-some-more-books-for-sale-kurogane-no-hana-jizai-okimono/

Book #4 sounds like a must-have for you?

 

Brian

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  • 5 years later...

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