bigjohnshea Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 URL: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=161696517041&alt=web I've bought from this seller before. He's reliable. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bleed Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Not buying swords, anymore? What does THAT mean? Truth to tell I am NOT buying like I used to, 'cause there just ain't swords out there like there used to be. But my plan is to to have all the kin and kids around my bed, weeping, when the phone rings and and the family hears me say, "Well, sure, I'll take it. Bring it around this weekend." Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnshea Posted May 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 I've got the swords I want. That's what it means. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonely panet Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Meah, all I see is bad photos and a bad hadori polish just my 2.5cents worth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 If I were I won't buy it for several reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Hi John, IMHO.The description is a long stretch, I don’t think its nanbokucho era or Yosozaemon Sukesada the only part IMHO that is a good bet is Late Muromachi or later and no close up of the Nakago which in this case needs a closer look. Hamish I am with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnshea Posted May 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Jim, Your choice of font is lovely. :-) The only thing that is really indicating to me that this is Muromachi and not Nambokucho is the lack of a second menuki hole. How many times have you seen a nakago from early Koto that isn't atleast machi-okure with another menuki hole? I agree that it could easily be Muromachi, but it could still be Nambokucho. As for Sukesada I have no opinion on that. I have not compared the features of this blade to his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Hi John, Mekugi-ana holes don’t mean much, and IMHO the pointers don’t point to nanbokucho. So try having a look a Yosozaemon Sukesada like these 2 from Darcy’s site and a lot more on the web. http://www.nihonto.ca/yosozaemon-sukesada-2/ http://www.nihonto.ca/yosozaemon-sukesada-3/ also have a look at the Nakago and tell me what you see ? I can think of 3 things that I have a ? about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 John, A few observations: 1 - the nakago does not fit Bizen sue Muromachi. Should be stubby. Have look at sue Bizen blades 2 - this Sukesada is top smith worth M¥. 3 - such smith will always sign his work as he is top smith 4 - nagasa is too long for this period all the more the blade being machiokuri. Anyway the nakago is ruined, the blade is unsigned, I'll pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 At the current price it is a very good deal for someone starting out. Even mumei, with age uncertain. Buy it as that, and enjoy it. We have always promoted buying unpapered swords for what they are, and not speculating. Depending on how much it ends at, could be a nice sword for someone. At least it should pass shinsa. Brian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnshea Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think for $3100 it doesn't even matter. Put it through shinsa, and if it papers to muromachi it could still sell for closer to $5000, particularly with a full koshirae. However, I truly do not see anything in the sugata, hada, hamon, etc. the features of the blade, that indicates it cannot be late kamakura or nanbokucho. No one has yet to actually explain, with or without any certainty, why that cannot be true. Perhaps the reason is that we all have a tendency at times to let the Dunning-Kruger Effect rear its head. Which is perhaps the reason that shinsa exists in the first place. As for Sukesada, I never had a reason to think it was related and I still don't. Have not had a chance to look at the links yet. On a somewhat related topic, I am always perplexed by verterans of nihonto collecting referring to a sword as a good sword for people "starting out". Is the implication of this phrase being that new collectors should somehow be inclined to spend money on subpar swords that do not appeal to seasoned collectors? Why do people use that term? I recommended the blade because I think I'd be happy owning it, not because I think someone who knows less than me (of which there are likely few :-) ) should relish in it while I do not. Anyhow, congratulations to the winner. I hope that if they put it through shinsa we will see it on the board someday and learn what it is given the best of our knowledge. Cheers, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 For 250$ more, here is a fair one: http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-iga-no-kami-minamoto-kanemichimotto-jitetsu-raku-saku-no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I am always perplexed by verterans of nihonto collecting referring to a sword as a good sword for people "starting out". Is the implication of this phrase being that new collectors should somehow be inclined to spend money on subpar swords that do not appeal to seasoned collectors? Why do people use that term? I recommended the blade because I think I'd be happy owning it, not because I think someone who knows less than me (of which there are likely few :-) ) should relish in it while I do not. Because novices typically do not even know what they collect yet. How many people found their ultimate theme the first time around? It takes years before you decide if you like Koto, Shinto, Shinshinto or Gendaito.....suguha or wild hamon, wakizashi, katana or other. How many novices are going to spend $10,000 on their first sword when they don't even know if they are going to love this hobby? How many beginners even know what they are looking at when presented with a full in-polish and papered blade? Generally, novices are going to be looking at a sword that has features you can see and study, at a price that will allow them a few years to study it and then move it on for no loss as they upgrade. Therefore blades like this fit the bill. It can be studied and enjoyed, without having the price tag attached to a papered and pristine blade. And it should make a decent trade item later if it is not what they ultimately want to keep. That's not a difficult concept to understand is it? Seasoned collectors probably won't want a mumei sword that has no papers. They are past that already in many cases, unless buying it to speculate. Brian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcfarrar Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I think for $3100 it doesn't even matter. Put it through shinsa, and if it papers to muromachi it could still sell for closer to $5000, particularly with a full koshirae. Don't you think the seller would have done that already considering the trivial cost of getting a paper when you live in Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Hi Jean, That's a excellent Buy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnshea Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Because novices typically do not even know what they collect yet. How many people found their ultimate theme the first time around? It takes years before you decide if you like Koto, Shinto, Shinshinto or Gendaito.....suguha or wild hamon, wakizashi, katana or other. How many novices are going to spend $10,000 on their first sword when they don't even know if they are going to love this hobby? How many beginners even know what they are looking at when presented with a full in-polish and papered blade? Generally, novices are going to be looking at a sword that has features you can see and study, at a price that will allow them a few years to study it and then move it on for no loss as they upgrade. Therefore blades like this fit the bill. It can be studied and enjoyed, without having the price tag attached to a papered and pristine blade. And it should make a decent trade item later if it is not what they ultimately want to keep. That's not a difficult concept to understand is it? Seasoned collectors probably won't want a mumei sword that has no papers. They are past that already in many cases, unless buying it to speculate. Brian Brian, I agree whole heartedly with much of what you said. However, the part I don't agree with (and this is really the part that makes me question the value of advocating that new collectors buy lesser quality swords) is the idea that a new collector can buy a lesser quality sword and then move it along for "no loss" after they are done studying it. In the four years of me collecting I was trying to do exactly that. Buying swords I could afford, studying them, then trading or selling them in order to acquire other blades that could be studied. I have done this with 12 swords, and out of those can I can say with truth that I didn't take a loss on perhaps two of them during the process. The system of buying then trading or reselling is DESIGNED in this hobby as a system where the seller/consignee nearly always takes a loss, unless they get lucky and buy something cheap that becomes something valuable after shinsa. Merchants usually charge 20% to resell a sword. The consignee cannot bump the value of their blade up 20% when they resell it, or the next owner bumps it up another 20% and the blade becomes unaffordable. If you look at the NMB for sale section, it is full of good and bad quality collectible items that are barely selling. When they do sell, it is nearly always at a "rock bottom", "bargain price", and we never hear the truth about what loss the seller took. In the fours years I've been collecting I have only one time arranged a successful trade that represented equal value between the blades. The other two times that I have traded swords it was to a merchant, and I was the one taking the loss on the valuation of my blade, not him ofcourse. This is not only true of lesser value blades. On two separate occassions I offered $18,000 worth of 2 NBTHK and NTHK papered swords as trade for credit towards a Juyo quality blade I would need to invest another $4-6000 into. Neither merchant wasn't interested. After discussing it with them I learned why. They know that a loss is built in for the seller. The $18,000 I invested in those swords is actually only worth $12-14,000, or perhaps less to them, particularly if they want to move the merchandise in a timely manner. Even $9,000 Tokubetsu Hozon swords are considered "mediocre" to someone who can afford Juyo swords, and for those that cannot, they have to really love something to spend $9,000 on it. So if the owner of that $9000 sword wants to resell it without waiting years for the right buyer to come out of the woodwork, they end up taking a loss. This trade and sale system you speak of, which takes place with no loss for the new collector, does not exist in my opinion. If people do not know enough about swords to know what they like, they should not buy ANYTHING given the prices that even "entry level" nihonto sell for. That is why I am at odds with the idea of advocating for "entry level" nihonto. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a mediocre sword that you do not take a loss on when you try to move it to another owner. In you want to learn what you like, go to sword shows, Find other collectors and look at their swords. Read the books. (That is if you can find the good ones without going bankrupt.) But, IMHO, telling people that they should buy mediocre blades so they can resell or trade them without a loss is just misleading. Don't you think the seller would have done that already considering the trivial cost of getting a paper when you live in Japan. No. Why not? Because not everyobody wants to invest $500 and three months worth of time in a sword that they are trying to sell. Particularly if they are trying to sell it fast, or simply fast enough to not want to wait months to get their shinsa papers. Also, not everyone cares about shinsa for the same raason. The only reason I submit things to shinsa personally is because I believe i know when something is good quality, and I want to maximize my ability to retain value on the blade if I resell it. Not to jump back to the previous comments, but even that does not work sometimes. The last katana I put through shinsa that passed with 70 points, was offered at a bargain price here and on facebook, a rpice which represented a very minimal profit for me. It sold at a loss for me when you consider the cost of shinsa. There were dozens of people interested in it, but most of them asked me the same exact question during our discussions. "What is the absolute lowest you're willing to take for it, John?" That's what people want. They want your rock bottom price for something before they will really consider it. What did I tell them? "I'll comes down to xxxxxx for you on this blade." I didn't answer the question directly because why should people expect you to make a rock bottom offer for them when they are the buyer? My last comments on this: I recognize that I am somewhat disgruntled in this hobby right now, however, I got the swords I want and everything else is going up for sale or is up for sale already. I'm happy with that. I will take care of those blades I love and the rest will be someone elses responsibility. People who are new to this hobby should make no mistake on this topic. The system of buying and reselling swords is 100% geared for the seller (not the merchant) but the seller/consignee to take a loss. Want your own proof? Take your best sword and offer it to a mechant for another equal quality blade at equal value. Nine out of ten times you will be rejected because their business model includes you taking the loss they cannot take as a merchant. Hope everyone is having a good Monday. As good as it can be. :-) Cheers, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Hi John I can appreciate you feel a little disillusioned with the subject at present having lost money through buying and selling on. I think this is in part due to relatively short time you have been buying and selling over. The good news is that after only 5 years you have, in your words, "the swords you want" and that you will continue to enjoy them. For what it is worth it took me more than 30 years to reach that point (if I have, but not sure). To get there I have bought, held and sold a lot of swords. Did I make profit on those I moved on? some yes but the majority no. Overall when I last looked I had just about broken even in the total number of deals done. Which as a collector not a dealer was great for me. This is an interest/hobby. If and when I eventually sell off everything I have I manage to break even I would be delighted. If I made a modest loss it shoudlnt matter too much. I have enjoyed half a lifetime of a totally enthralling pastime/obsession which as I have said in many other posts has offered immeasurable benefits, friendships and contacts. Any loss I make I would hope I would regard as the fees for participating. There is nothing else I have done that I have enjoyed so much, taken up so much time, and actually cost me so little. The real key factor here is to decide what you are looking to get out of the subject. We are told time and again do not regard buying swords (or any other antique or art) as an investment, there are numerous people regretting buying Geortgian furniture or Beswick china etc having learned values can decrease as well as increase. Buy not as an investment but to enjoy. When you come to sell it on the fact you recover the majority of your money is a benefit, if you make a profit its a bonus. Sorry dont mean to preach but I think you are being a bit unfair on yourself and the sword world. You have done well to get where you are and should celbrate the fact rather than be unhappy that getting there hasnt generated substantial (or any) profit. The profit hopefully has been the pleasure the journey and ongoing study will give you. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussi Ekholm Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Nakamura san is a member of NMB and I think he sometimes has interesting items for sale. I would recommend improving the photography, as it's very easy to take good high quality pictures. High quality pictures make judging of the item a lot easier and I think they are needed when shopping online. I don't use eBay so I don't know if they have limitations for pic size. But there is always option for smaller sized quality pictures. I am not in the buying position but I'll still look at items every day. I would not generally buy items based on poor pictures unless the deal would be amazing.Window shopping is a lot cheaper than actual shopping. Maybe I'm starting to have peculiar taste as I tend to find fewer and fewer swords in my theoretically possible price range that I'm looking. There are lots and lots of swords for sale but only selected few that light my fire. Of course when you go above my budgets there is lot of great stuff... One reason why I might suggest "reasonably" priced sword as a first purchase for someone is the fact that something like 3000$'s is a lot of money to be investing on a sword in the first place. And most likely they wont be able to sell it onwards for 5000$ but when the time for selling it comes 2000-2500$'s will be a reasonable estimate if you can't manage to get your own investment back. I can say that I have never got my full investment back on any of the swords I've sold so far but I think I have gotten a reasonable amount of it back everytime. I might have gotten closer to my investment if I would have taken more time to sell them so it's always decisions decisions. I agree with your statement that it is better to wait and study more before buying but there is a big but. People want to have samurai swords. I know I had to get one when I started even though I didn't have enough knowledge to know what I was buying. You have to start somewhere. Valuation of a sword is a tricky thing. I know I value both of my tachi way higher what I paid for them. Very few would probably pay the price I would value them at. Similarily I see some items that are in my opinion way overpriced for what they are. And if an item doesn't sell in multiple years it probably is, and it's hard to find a buyer for it at that asking price. Of course there is also the other side of things when an item is priced so low that the right buyer comes within few hours. If you have the swords you currently want it's great. You can enjoy them and slowly save up money in case you someday find something you want. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 John, I think a lot of what I wrote depends on where you live. I write with a background of someone in South Africa, where there are not a lot of swords, and selling one used to be fairly easy and prices were higher than in the USA generally. The same applies for a lot of swords in the UK and smaller countries where careful purchasing will realize no (or very little) loss on selling. This would be different for a place like the USA, where there are sword shows and hundreds of thousands of swords for sale, and people can afford to be picky. So I guess it all depends on where you live. I know guys in some parts of Europe will pay a lot more for a sword if it is local, as importing is a nightmare. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 when I started I bought inexpensive swords, learned from them and sold them. I found when I sold them I learned a lot because people showed me EVERYTHING NEGATIVE about the sword. It was very educational. When I was comfortable knowing a $1000 sword from a $300 sword, I moved to $1000 swords, Eventually I figured out the difference between a $2500 sword and a $1000 sword, so I moved to more expensive swords. I recommend buying at a level you are comfortable, learn and eventually sell. When you sell you get a real education in the value. Move up as your comfort level changes. Apply the lessons learned from selling when buying the next sword, I figure that is how I pay for the education. I have made money on some swords and broken even, and lost money on plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Marc, Same for me, I have made money on some very few swords and lost money on plenty. I made profit on the ones I bought in the 80's and lost money on the ones I bought in the last decade for the reasons already stated by John. I cannot say I got invaluable information from these losses, at the opposite I can say I can add up the thousand € I loss. So the conclusion is: never use the consignment channel, don't be in a hurry when you want to sell, don't use ebay if your swords have some value. If a sword does not sell withdraw it from sale and wait another month before putting it for sale again. Do not hesitate to use several channels (websites) to advertise your sale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curran Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Jean: nice Aoi-Art pick. With NMB 10% discount, even better. That tsuba has got to go. Wonder what was on it before it got plundered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Hi John, I don't think the problem for beginners you pointed out is unique to Nihonto; I bet that's the case in any established field of collecting. If he can get in on the beginning of a fad, like Beanie Babies for example, a new guy can do well without much knowledge, but to break into something with a history of collecting: art pottery, glass, old master oils, militaria, or Nihonto, involves a learning curve. The new collector has to choose which type of learning curve he will have. He can buy and sell mostly low value blades and likely lose money on most of them or he can study hard before buying. I recommend the latter but did the former myself back 20 to 30 years ago. Beginners can luck onto bargains but they usually can't recognize them. And when they go to sell the sword they hoped was a bargain they find out otherwise. But please don't let this discourage you. If a beginner is willing to make the effort, with time and experience he will recognize the bargains and do well. ps. I still regularly lose money on swords; I don't think any of us ever always comes ou on top. And when I think of a good sword for a beginner, I think of a polished and papered wakizashi by a well trained medium level smith who was having a good day when he made the sword. Grey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Totally agreed with your last paragraph Grey. Wakizashi in full polish is really the best investment for beginners. Best buy for money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 not only for beignners. Some of my favourite blades have been (and still are ) wakazashi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teimei Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Is there really a 10% Discount on Aoi Art, if you are a member of the board? :D Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Paul, is that a Tegai? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Hi Mariusz no it isnt although the school has some tegai links (amongst others) it is a tokubetsu Hozon papered Enju blade. General opinion is that it stands very well against Rai Kunimitsu. I think it papered to Enju instead of Rai because it has an O-maru boshi and shirrake rather than nie utsuri. It is possible the best 18" of Enju steel I have ever seen. I have bought it twice, so it must have something going for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 That Enju must be a masterwork. I have seen the kuichigaiba and thought how much it reminds me of a certain Tegai... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnshea Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 On a different topic. Speaking of Enju swords, I had my eye on this one for a good long time as a potential to submit for Juyo. So gorgeous... http://www.tetsugendo.com/swords/kat_114_Enju.html And couldn't be sold by a more reliable man. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts