Nihonto Oil - A Study

[Derek]

[Derek]

[jason_mazzy]

great. thank you.

[Derek]

Thank you to all who have responded, both here and privately!  I know that it's not a perfect experiment, but it's interesting to me.  I'm a bit of freak when it comes to this stuff....  I know that choji oil has been used forever, and I respect tradition.  On the other hand, uchiko has been used forever, and I think microfiber is a much better option. (As Darcy points out  )

Also, as Jean says all the time, many climates don't require oil at all.  Our summers in WI are quite humid, so my collection requires oil.  I also worry a ton about my Muramasa coming home from Japan with a thumb print from a customs officer...

 

I will be running this whole thing again to verify, but I have already observed some interesting things:

 

Old fashioned choji oil (at least from the big Japan vendor) is excellent.     Rem oil did very well on the first run; it offered better protection than choji oil, but with the same thickness.  Breakfree collector is very nice, and seemed to offer better protection, but it is really thick and seemed to attract dust. Eezox is intriguing.... It went on easy, no sticky residue, and was the only sample to have no rust.  It has a strong odor though, and that odor stays on the metal. 

I can honestly say that none of the other tested products will go on my nihonto.

Next round of tests to come. 

[brannow]

Maybe I missed it but did you use a high carbon steel?  Also was it a drop of water you put on after rubbing on the oil?

 

Thanks!

 

[Derek]

_{Hi Bill,}

_{I used Low carbon hot rolled steel.  I have some blanks for welding.  I ground off the top layer, sanded it with 220, and cleaned it thoroughly.} 

_{I oiled each section very well, wiped off the excess, and let it dry for ten minutes.}

_{I added a drop of 1% saline, then pressed in with my bare thumb.}

_{Again, I was trying to imitate a person touching my nihonto with a sweaty hand without my seeing it, then seeing what oil offered protection.}

_{Not a perfect test, but I thought it would be interesting.} 

_{My first test seemed to show that choji oil (From a reputable source) does an excellent job.  Rem oil was a bit better.  Collector was good, but it had a very sticky residue.  Eezox was the best protector, but smelled strongly.}

_{Not perfect, but interesting.  I will try to replicate these results.  Maybe others will try.  I'm not trying to tell anyone what to use, just testing what's out there.}

[Derek]

Chris, I will do some separate tests with the Eezox.  I'm interested to know what you find as well.  So far, I like everything except the smell.

[w.y.chan]

Traditional oil is tsubaki or Carmelia. I know that mineral sword oil sold by Fujishiro is much better than the choji oil sold by many dealers. Not sure how it rank amongst Derek's test, maybe close to Rem?

Eezox is interesting but the smell might be an issue

 

Wah

[Jean]

Congrats Derek, not only you did first checked if blades oiling was necessary, but you made also a deep research on oils to see which was the best.

[steve0]

Awesome work Derek, thank you for sharing your results.

[Darcy]

I think it's very interesting and I'm glad you did this.

 

About the Eesox probably it is not a good choice. After Chris wrote what he wrote, I checked Amazon reviews and users said that it becomes gummy and builds up. This is also possibly why it's so good at what it does heh. 

 

Some oils that "dry" are oxidizing and/or being wicked away by the wood. The oxidation turns them into a kind of plastic and this is part of some wood finishing like with tung oil or linseed oil. Those oils because they do dry (oxidize) make for a durable finish that protects the wood (not as well as lacquer, poly, and other stuff, but they are the basics that come before all of these processes). 

 

Not sure if that is part of the process with Eesox... 

 

Also read this where one gun owner is saying not to use it due to some major issues:

 

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=158025

 

And of course they debate it. It's the internet. But worth reading. I read elsewhere it is silicone based. That means that to remove it you'll either have to use a solvent or you'll have to use uchiko. This sounds like bad news to me.

 

Eesox does say it "cures" which means it is oxidizing similar to these old fashioned natural oils. It's basically putting a finish on the metal which is going to protect it similar to the way these finishes would protect wood. Doesn't sound like the right choice for swords.

 

Further edit: reading a lot of complaints on the smell from gun owners (though some seem to like it).

[cabowen]

Many oils, such as tung oil, etc., "cure" through polymerization (molecules combining to form long chains) and oxidation (combining with oxygen from the air).

 

Here is the Eezox MDF:

 

http://www.eezox.info/msds.pdf

 

Not too enticing...

[b.hennick]

Traditionalist writing here...if Choji works well and has a history of use that is very long why change to something that might be better but does not have the long history to back it up.

Although I use microfibre, I also use uchiko when I think it is approriate. Again a long history of use (remember Jim Kurrasch anyone) and when used appropriately I see no problem with it. 

[Brian]

Something I would love to also see tested is a humid environment like some places in the world or near the coast.

In other words, clean the steel....wipe with the oil, and leave all the samples in a bathroom where you shower regularly? Might be interesting to see what they do against humidity with no saline or fingerprints.

Excellent tests. Maybe not going to change what many of us use, but at least we have seen practical tests and can form an educated opinion now.

 

Brian

[Derek]

Thank you for the feedback!

Again, I am not trying to talk anyone into using a certain oil.  I just wanted to know what I was using on my nihonto collection, and how it stacks up against alternatives.....

What I'm seeing so far is that chojji oil is very good.  If you are using it, I think it's a good choice.  To be honest though, Rem Oil seems to be just as good.  (Maybe better   )

Two others seem to offer better rust prevention, but... Collector is too sticky for my taste, and Eezox smells really bad.

I have just started the second test, which I will update next.

Barry- I think you and I share very similar opinions here.

Brian- I like your idea.  I may try something like that.  My wife may have something to say about leaving an oily piece of smelly steel in our bathroom though.   

[w.y.chan]

These are some of the best cleaning kit and oil around

 

http://www.nihontou.net/hanbai.htm

 

[Derek]

My sample choji oil is posted here.  Anyone know of the difference between available sword oils in Japan?

 

 

 

 

 

 

If not, I am considering a test between those as well.  Again, I am not trying to influence anyone, but do we really know what we are putting on our nihonto?  I just spent several thousand dollars on a new polish, and I am to just blindly trust an oil since the packaging is in Japanese?  Please don't take it the wrong way.  No offense meant to anyone.  I really do appreciate the feedback and opinions of people here.  If you love nihonto like I do, then we already have a lot in common!

[w.y.chan]

How did it compare to other available products?

 

Neutral mineral oil that is better than choji. I had choji oil on a blade in a old WW2 mount and start developing rust after 6 months. Use this oil once and after 6 years it is still free of rust and I have not changed the oil yet. When dried it can wipe off easily. I was told it is used in a museum in Tokyo.

Had mine for 18 years and the oil still clear like new in the bottle. My choji oil around the same age is smokey colour.

[Derek]

These are some of the best cleaning kit and oil around

 

http://www.nihontou.net/hanbai.htm

 

 

 

Is this the same oil as Paul sells?

 

 

http://www.thejapanesesword.com/store-2/fujishiro-oil-small

[w.y.chan]

My sample choji oil is posted here.  Anyone know of the difference between available sword oils in Japan?

 

 

 okatanaaburae.jpg

 

 

I've got some of those oil. Not as good as mineral. Allegedly being advertise as an insecticide that keeps insect away from your sword

They are a bit too oily and does not dry as quick which can be a problem for the saya.

 

Wah

[w.y.chan]

Is this the same oil as Paul sells?

 

photo-1.jpg

 

Yes. The picture I attached is a bigger size bottle that has been redesigned.

I'm not sure if he still sells them through his website but I'm sure he can get them. 

 

Wah

[Derek]

Also, I'm confused, as Guido posted,

 

"Mineral oil is sold with and without the addition of clove oil, Fujishiro oil is the latter. It's basically the same as sewing machine oil."

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/14125-fujishiro-oil-and-uchiko/
 

[w.y.chan]

Also, I'm confused, as Guido posted,

 

"Mineral oil is sold with and without the addition of clove oil, Fujishiro oil is the latter. It's basically the same as sewing machine oil."

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/14125-fujishiro-oil-and-uchiko/

 

 

My observation are they are not the same oil with or without clove additive.

 

Wah

[Derek]

Thank you Wah, I really do appreciate your input.  A quick google search shows that you have discussed this many times on different forums

I just emailed Paul to purchase some Fujishiro Oil from him.  I will test that next. 

Now, anyone have a broken blade or other throw-away nihonto that they would be willing to donate for the cause? 

[cabowen]

You ought to try camellia oil too as that is also traditionally used on edged tools in Japan...

[drbvac]

Pure Mineral oil can be gotten and it is used as a laxative and other so you can drink it so it can't be too harmful to anything. If you really like the smell of cloves you can add it to the oil but it really doesnt do anything other than scent the oil.

I remove it with isopropyl alcohol and put it back on once in a while and live 5 miles from salt water - never had any problems so - if it aint broke dont fix it.

 

Very interesting tests however but these are all oils - what about Rennaissance Wax - anyone ever apply that to Nihonto = I have put it on my Colts and Remingtons and they dont change.

[Derek]

I am now posting the second round of the same test.  I ground down a new piece of the same type of steel, sanded with 220, sectioned them off, and applied samples of oil in different locations.  I then treated with a 1% saline mixture, and pressed my thumb into each area.

 

At 8 hours, control was already rusted lightly.  Machine oil was discolored.  Tuf-glide had a waxy residue.

All other samples showed no change.

[Derek]

At 8 hours.  Test #2.

[Derek]

[John A Stuart]

Brian, I use ren wax on my smallswords and rapiers with good results. I don't use it on Nihonto. John