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Moriie

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#1 zentsuji2

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 07:02 PM

Ive been offerred a moriie katana from Japan.
I am new to anything of this age and woulf be glad of any help on smith, and work , I linked him to ichimonji somehow.
The blade has a nice hada , a bad scar in the bohi, some ware but its possibly old enough to warrant these things.

Thanks in advance, hope you can help.
Best regards
Ian Bellis

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Ian

#2 zentsuji2

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 07:15 PM

More pictures from previous post.
Apologies if not allowed.

regards
IanBellis

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Ian

#3 Brian

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 07:51 PM

Ian,

Please keep them in one topic instead of starting a new one for additional pics :)

Topics merged.

 

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#4 Darcy

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:01 PM

Hatakeda Moriie is a very big name. Photo of the mei is blurry. Odds are not in your favor unless it's already authenticated. Period is mid to late Kamakura for this smith and style will be similar to Ichimonji. You really need to be careful with this kind of thing. 


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#5 zentsuji2

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:15 PM

Ian,
Please keep them in one topic instead of starting a new one for additional pics :)
Topics merged.
 
Brian

Apologies Brian still not figured out the new enterprise yet captain.:)
Wont do it again, sorty mate,

regards
ian bellis
Ian

#6 Grey Doffin

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:45 PM

Hi Ian,

Big name and in Japan where a paper can be had easily: if being offered without paper you assume it is gimei and pay accordingly.

Grey


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#7 Jussi Ekholm

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 10:59 PM

Bit over my level to comment on but I don't mind. :)

 

Did the person who offered this to you say this is "the" Moriie, or did he say it's "a" Moriie? Also note that it's katana-mei, I believe all signed "the" Moriie long swords in my books are tachi-mei. The mei pic is so blurry I can't even determine if it's Moriie by 守家 or 家. There were bunch of Muromachi smith who used latter Moriie.

 

I would also ask better pictures from the seller.


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#8 Jean

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 01:00 AM

If it is Hatekeda Moriie, his father was Fukuoka Ichimonji ( as far as I can remember, to be checked) Fantastic hamon which can reach sometimes the Shinogi and above all an outstanding midare utsuri which looks like a milky way under a glass. Very good substitute for Fukuoka Ichimonji.
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#9 cabowen

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 01:24 AM

It might be a good idea to look at the mei, which is 盛家, not 守家....clearly this is not Hatekeda Moriie....


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#10 Loco Al

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 02:20 AM

You were "offered" this katana from Japan?

 

Too little information in the opening thread. How did you come to be "offered" this katana, and by whom? Have you dealt with this seller before, or did you seek him out initially. Don't worry! I do not think that anyone else here is going to be in a hurry to scoop it out from under you based upon the poor condition of the sword, the suspect attribution, and the pitiful presentation in the blurry photos. Just look at the setting in which it has been so poorly photographed and presented (unless those are perchance your own photos and you already bought it). Heed carefully what Darcy said: You really need to be careful with this kind of thing.

 

If you really fancy a Moriie, I would save my pennies for something authenticated.

 

Alan



#11 John A Stuart

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 02:51 AM

No, I wouldn't be unwary with this offering. John



#12 zentsuji2

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 12:56 PM

For the sword snob who's background means more than the sword, it's just a learning curve for me.
I am a carer not a sword multi millionaire,or solo playboy,
This is a saya maker,and fuchi maker for shops in Japan.
Does it matter how a sword is displayed?
If a masamune was on a pulled back old man's bed sheet would you dismiss it as gimei to the fact of his, messy room!
What's wrong also with a sword being offered in Japan,they did make them there,
I find it staggering the negativity on here sometimes,I'm not stupid, I haven't bought it already,I've asked for more pictures.
Why not constructive criticism, the price is what made me wary it's too cheap, I hadn't heard of moriie until 2 days ago.
I tried to message D'Arcy,this is a freind in Japan, who makes beautiful Shirasaya, lacquered saya,his home has nothing to do with it.
Thanks Chris, for your helpful mei discretion, that's how to learn.
I couldn't see ichimonji influence, I know nothing of this period yet.
John do you think with the photos I sent, it looks a bad sword,or suriage, bohi,nice hada and for the price of a gendaito.
Alan,why not point out the flaws,wear do I can learn,instead of knocking someone's bedroom.
I have had money to buy for a year, I'm very cautious, but I believe on here, it's a knock first,before a learn.
Thanks to helpful members as usual people who have saved me in the past
I haven't parted with any money as I'm asking opinions.
Regards Ian Bellis
Ian

#13 John A Stuart

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 01:05 PM

My sense always is caution, by learning the hard and expensive way. Investigation and helpful opinion, yours to take or leave, is essential. Price is usually an indication, when, from a knowlegeable person selling. I think you are going about it the right way. John

#14 zentsuji2

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 02:34 PM

Allen I get offerred many swords.
Im still a learner , this is waaay out of my expertise.
I collect gendaito.
I do not however judge a sword on the background alone,
The seller is a saya maker, and shirasaya , lacquer worker, I asked for a reasonably priced old blade, I didn't know what was to come.
Moriie was just a name I had seen in conosoirs book, I found it suspicious, so I asked .
I have seen bundles of badly displayed swords with gems inside them at military fairs.
A well displayed sword, has a well displayed price , and my wallet doesnt run to that.
Check ebay sometime, its a piece of rust in a repaired shirasaya, but could be a gem.
well displayed means known checked and accordingly priced.
I wasnt knocking your comment , but diamonds are found in the rough, and unless you have a big bank balance, its where to look ,
Many may disagree but not all are David Bailey, and bed sheets are as good as velvet if a good sword is laid on them.
No offence meant Allen, just a point of view.
regards
Ian Bellis
Ian

#15 Brian

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 03:11 PM

Ian,

You are missing the point entirely of Alan's post. He is trying to say that if the seller is a dealer or knowledgeable collector, then you should be wary if it is being presented as a top sword, because a dealer or advanced collector would not display or present a sword that way. In other words, buying a sword does not just depend on the sword in the pics, but also on other clues and indicators as to what is being offered. It is very much a game of psychology as much as a simple transaction.

It's like when you see an eBay sword and the seller pretends to know nothing about the sword and makes as though the sword is out of the woodwork, and then you see he has been selling Nihonto for years.

You look at everything to decide what you are being presented with. Alan is just pointing out that to know if you are getting a deal or not, you need to know about the seller and how he views the sword too. If I have an Ichimonji...I am not going to take pics of it lying outside on the grass. It helps to know the seller and his background, and get an idea of how he considers the sword, and this comes through in how the sword is depicted in photos.

Chris has pointed out this isn't from the big Moriie. Therefore it is by one of the other smiths...which means buy it as if it is mumei and buy the sword, not the mei. Which means you need far better pics......

Sometimes things are not as they come across, and comments are really just trying to get people to think further...

 

Brian


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#16 cabowen

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:59 PM

Ian-

 

A cursory look at the Meikan reveals there are many koto smiths who signed Moriie 盛家. Many are in the Kosori Bizen group but there is also a Kongyobyoe smith, a Takada smith, and several others.

 

Personally, and no offense meant, but I think you are getting into water that is over your head and filled with sharks. I understand your interest in finding diamonds in the rough but until you have considerable expertise, I think you will find that route, as many others have, a trail of tears. 

 

Japan is filled with swords that have been tuned to fool and many are so good that they will fool even those with extensive experience. Unless it is polished and papered, I would stay away from anything being offered to you from Japan.

 

I would also stick to gendai-to as there is much less chance of getting burned.

 

We have corresponded on many occasions so my comments are based on a knowledge of your situation and with your best interests at heart.



#17 zentsuji2

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 11:23 PM

Thanks Chris, apologies Allen,
Without this site I'd be begging for change and divorced.
I have a lot on at present and thought as this was a Shirasaya maker,I may have found something.
Best regards all.
Ian Bellis
Ian

#18 Jean

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 01:33 AM

Ian,

As we don't know the price, it can well be worth it, but beware that anyone in Japan dealing more or less in this field is well aware of prices...
Jean L.
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#19 zentsuji2

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 07:02 PM

Price 400000 jpy
Ian

#20 Jean

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 11:37 PM

I think that for the price, you can get a better blade but perhaps not with a koshirae.
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#21 Loco Al

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 03:46 AM

Thanks Chris, apologies Allen,
Without this site I'd be begging for change and divorced.
I have a lot on at present and thought as this was a Shirasaya maker,I may have found something.
Best regards all.
Ian Bellis

No need to apologize to me, Ian. Instead, I should rather be apologizing to you. I would also like to thank Brian for attempting to clarify the point I was trying to make. I tend to be not very diplomatic in my responses to other member's posts.

 

Like you, I am still learning. I have no way near the level of expertise as Chris, or Jean, or Darcy. I have been fortunate enough to have acquired two very nice swords, but I was well tutored and advised in regard to those purchases.

 

You finally supplied us with the most important bit of missing information (other than the dimensions of the sword): The price. 400,000 Yen is approximately $4000 Canadian dollars. That's a considerable sum. As Chris said, there were many who signed Moriie. Evident from the photos, there is damage to the mune in at least two places and there appears to be pitting in the hi near the kissaki. I am sure that it would be quite expensive to restore this sword.

 

You might find a hidden gem stateside, but not in Japan I would think. Even if this shirasaya maker was not well connected, he would only have to walk it into one of the better shops in Tokyo to ask for an opinion. If it were deemed to have been something special, then I don't think that he would be offering it to you (or anyone else) in that condition.

 

Even if this sword was judged to be worth 400,000 Yen, I would not want it in that condition. It might be very difficult to get your money back in the future. Just my opinion. Chris's last response to you in this thread was most genuine, I thought.

 

Alan







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