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Fun Set of Menuki...


Soshin

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Hi Eric Santucci,

 

Good luck your submission to the NBTHK. For my menuki I am thinking of submitting them to either the NTHK shinsa in April 2015 or NBTHK in 2015 via Mike and Cyrus. :)

 

Thank you David, good luck with your menuki as well - hope to see them in person some time next year. They are a wonderful set!

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Pete,

Do you mean signed by means of style/technique, or literal signature?

Either way, based on the obvious quality these would not have been made by some half talented copyist. They really grow on you. (yes, into frogs :lol: ) That shakudo is fantastic.

 

Brian

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Hi Everyone,

 

Read Pete's reply I started searching all the books I have ever purchased from him a smaller subset compared to my whole tosogu reference library. I came across the (Higo-kinko 肥後金工) artist of (Misumi Harunobu 三角春信). Menuki and fuchi-gashira are both frequent but tsuba are in comparison rare. Most works are in shakudo and very few in iron. On the back side of his menuki only are a triangular pin which stands for this name "Misumi 三角" which means triangle. From looking at the examples in the book Works of Hirata & Shimizu by Ito Mitsuru the artist did do many catfish and tadpole designs with a very similar shakudo and gold inlaid eyes. The gold inlaid eyes between the menuki and example provided in the book are identical. They are also as pointed out by Ford very different then the ones on the koshirae of the tadpole design shared by Robert S. On the right side of the custom box is a Japanese note about the menuki having triangles. A better translation of the box note is welcome. A photo of the box note is included below.

post-1126-14196946644177_thumb.jpg

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The problem with an attribution based on such an obvious an easily copied device is obvious, I hope. An attribuition ought only to be made where a distict relationship in terms of style and workmanship with certified genuine examples can be shown. In this case I actually find David's tadpoles to be far more expressive and characterful than any of Misumi Harunobu's work, certainly they appear to be more elegant and sensitively rendered than the one pair of tadpole menuki in Ito's book.

 

That these are shakudo with gold inlaid eyes is not particlarly noteworthy. These are pretty common features and not in any way evidence of a relationship other than the fact they're both examples of Edo period metalwork. I daresay I could copy them, with the triangle ashi, equally well but that'd not make them by Misumi Harunobu.

 

In short I think these are better than the Higo artist's work. So the triangle ashi are simply a co-incidence OR these are intended to decieve as to the real maker. In my opinion.

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Compliments to David for coming to the conclusion Pete was obviously referring to, and to Pete for pointing out something I had never heard of before. Great info to tuck away in the back of the mind, as well as show the importance of reference works.

I cannot comment on whether they are by a (better?) artist or not, having little exposure to his work. But seems to me like that is what the artist was going for, whether shoshin or not. Can't think of another reason for triangular "pegs" and whilst co-incidence is always a possibility it seems likely that it was the intended hint. At least imho.

I guess the question is what other examples of this artist's work do we have showing the triangle, and what other forms of expressing this can be seen.

Love research like this, because no matter the outcome...we end up learning a lot more that we started out with. Thanks David for sharing them (and having the good sense to purchase them!) and to Pete for introducing something that was missed by most of us.

Ford, can we expect to see some beautiful renditions of this theme in the future? I am sure you can make this theme really blow our minds.

 

Brian

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Hi Eveyone,

 

The issue of gimei and shoshin is a mute point because I don't think the NBTHK would fail something like menuki for having triangular shaped pins and not being made by Harunobu. Keep in mind I am mostly a collector of and knowledgeable in old iron tosogu. I was posting these menuki to learn more about Kinko tosogu in general from more knowledgeable people.

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Hi Eric Santucci,

 

I have seen many very nice unsigned Kinko tosogu works by the Mito school. My menuki are also unsigned so a school attribution might be all that is given if they are submitted to shinsa. One of the advantages of NBTHK submission is that they will take into consideration comments made by the submitter. This isn't permitted in NTHK or NTHK(NPO) shinsa. Good luck your submission to the NBTHK. For my menuki I am thinking of submitting them to either the NTHK shinsa in April 2015 or NBTHK in 2015 via Mike and Cyrus. :)

 

 

I wouldn'd send them to shinsa because they are unfortunately cast.

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:doubt:

You may want to elaborate on that. Especially for the benefit of Ford, Pete, David and the rest of us.

I see no signs of that at all.

 

Brian

I don't expect you will agree with me. I am just saying what I see. There is especially one construction detail which determines the making method. It was already mentioned, but it would look differently if it was formed from a sheet of metal.

I don't want to argue with anybody. But if these pieces will go to shinsa and will be returned back with the same conclusion, then should be documented that somebody said it.

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I look forward to reading your rationale.

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I agree with Kevin would love to read a rationale for the cast reproduction call. I was thinking the tails were solid shakudo but I can see the seam between the layers of the shakudo plate used to make the menuki once Ford pointed it out correcting me. I am also not looking for a flight only a educational exchange of ideas to advance everyone understanding of kinko tosogu. Having Mike Y. take a look at Tampa show would be a good idea before they are submitted for NBTHK shinsa. :)

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I personally think those are the same pair. Even finishing filing marks are the same. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it is better given with detailed explanations. I am sure (and hope) that Ford will give his too.

 

Brian

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I personally think those are the same pair. Even finishing filing marks are the same. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it is better given with detailed explanations. I am sure (and hope) that Ford will give his too.

 

Brian

 

I am sorry if you don't see it, but to teach such experienced NMB squad how to look at menuki construction seems to me be inadequate according my humble experience.

So continue without me please.

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I personally think those are the same pair. Even finishing filing marks are the same. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it is better given with detailed explanations. I am sure (and hope) that Ford will give his too.

 

Brian

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I can't agree more with Brian. If someone can provide conclusive evidence via good quaily photos with some type of written explaination in terms of logical reasoning I will change my current mindset. Roman is unwilling to provide this so I opening up discussion for other people to reply.

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Am I missing an additional set of photos? I don't see any other menuki provided for comparison, maybe it's something on my end.

 

I think the best "evidence" for this discussion is well- and evenly-lit macro photography of the underside of these menuki. If we can find the elusive "line" along the tail that shows how the metal is pushed together in the uchidashi technique, we should have our answer. EDIT: Sorry David, I just went back in the discussion and noticed that you found it. Any chance you can capture it in a photo?

 

Frankly though, I think there is enough structure present to confirm this as-is, and these are certainly better-made than typical repro menuki. As always though, it's a challenge to make assertions like with only photographs on the internet and no in-hand examination. :)

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Brian

 

I would be beneath me to gainsay the opinion of someone who by his own admission has such an "inadequate" and " humble experience." :rotfl:

 

It really isn't worth debating. There is absolutely no reason I can see to suggest they are not what they appear to be.

 

edit to add:

 

Roman Urban:

There is especially one construction detail which determines the making method. It was already mentioned, but it would look differently if it was formed from a sheet of metal.

 

I believe Roman was referring to David's comment that the tails were solid. As this initial misapprehension has now been corrected and David has confirmed that the tails are in fact formed out of sheet metal squashed together, as I described, perhaps Roman would care to reasses his position.

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Hi John, Roman, and Kevin;

 

Home from work I don't collect menuki as my day job nor do I make them. :badgrin: Here is a photo in a bit higher resolution 800 X 373 showing the seam highlighted by red arrows (tips pointing at the seam line) from the sheet of shakudo being hammered in to fill the volume of the tail. It is clearer on one menuki then the other because of lighting issues. The back surface was then filed by the artist in a horizontal direction. Ford has in the passed commented that this filing of the back surface of the menuki is done in a horizontal direction as part of the finishing process to make the back side flat this is done before the pins are added as the final step.

When I look at a 400% image of the backside of these menuki there are some very telling characteristics. I seen certain edges that are rounded and spelter in crevasses.

I am a bit concerned you are magnifying such a scaled down image. When I export them from the RAW format to JPEG I scale them down to 640 X 299 resolution from a full resolution of 3813 X 1782 after cropping so that they fit well on the screen when posting. Some of what you are seeing is I am sure an artifact such as noise and distortions from the extreme magnification. No edges are rounded at all on the backside of the menuke. It is flat as all menuki I have seen. All you are seeing with "spelter" is noise or a reflections of light from the glossy but rough shakudo surface of the inside surface of the menuki. The inside surface of the menuki are rough because they are not polish as the surface of menuki are which was an attempt by the artist to replicate the texture of tadpole skin which looks smooth.

post-1126-14196946715381_thumb.jpg

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  • 8 months later...

Hi Everyone,

 

Just wanted to post and revive this dead topic a little bit with an important update of information. Brian hates when someone posts on a old long dead topic. Brain are you are aright with hearing a update?

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LOL Brain... People who post here on NMB shouldn't be bullied or belittled because they are not your best buddy or a professional tsuba maker. Here is updated information. I missed Mike Yamasaki at the Tampa Show this year. I had a table and was busy with that the whole show and he left early on Sunday so I couldn't talk to him about the tadpole menuki after the show. Therefore I needed a broker to submit them for shinsa in Japan. My friend Peter Farrar suggested I contact Paul Martin (http://www.thejapanesesword.com/) to act as a broker for me in Japan for shinsa. I shipped the menuki to him in Japan and had them submitted to the NTHK-NPO (The Society for the Preservation of the Japanese Sword) for shinsa (examination). I decided to do this based in part to Curran's own research about the NBTHK and their lack in the appistial of Higo tosogu as of late. Please refer to this topic for more information: (http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/16383-nbthk-papering-of-higo-tsuba/?hl=higo). The other part is my personal experience with the NTHK-NPO in the past but I digress.

 

The menuki came back with a direct attribution to (Mitsumi Harunobu 三角春信) circa the middle Edo Period (江戸時代中期) circa the Keian Era. They scored so high in fact that they had to be submitted to the yearly (Yuushu shinsa 優秀審査) in December. The menuki are now safely with Paul Martin in Japan until this December because we decided this would be the safest approach without risking multiple international shipments to and from Japan and the USA. Regardless of the results of the upcoming Yuushu Shinsa I am very happy with these menuki and plan to keep them in my collection a very long time. Things of such high quality don't come along often. :)

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LOL Brain... People who post here on NMB shouldn't be bullied or belittled because they are not your best buddy or a professional tsuba maker.

 

If people don't want to be my best buddy, of course they should be bullied and belittled!

And anyways...I'm antisocial, so not looking for buddies.

And tsuba makers? Pffftt! Not even one free tsuba! Hmph.

 

:fit:

 

Congrats on the results. The quality was clearly there. Very nice! keep them, no trading them off.

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David I really don't understand why you need to continually stir the pot. This post had absolutely nothing to do with your disdain for some "professional tsuba makers" nor being bullied etc. You don't seem to be able to help yourself from causing problems. The way that Brian handled that smart assed comment from you was pretty nice and I gotta tell you if I was the admin I would have booted you for it. There is absolutely no need for you to act this way. 

 

BTW didn't you say you were done with this site a couple of months ago and wouldn't be posting again? http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/16293-higo-tsuba-肥後鍔-dandyism-expressed-through-iron/?p=170810

 

I hope you can figure out what it is like to participate in a civil way without constant getting your feelings hurt and throwing your comments around. If not why don't you make good on your threat to not post here anymore.  

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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