Brian Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think what is being suggested is that old papers aren't looked at with huge confidence anymore (even though most are still fine) and that any scandal might lead to new papers having the same reputation for a different reason...which is also a huge exaggeration. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunitaro Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 This forged paper isuue has a few serious problem. At first, These forged Hozon/TH papers are not fake paper. they are real paper which isuued by NBTHK, just changed Oshigata (or photo) and put pressed stamp (and red stamp for oshigata) on. (so the forge maker has Stamp(s)). so, nobody could recognize original or changed photo to oshigata papers, even dealers or museum can not recognize. Juyo token shiteisho is easier, because, they are pulsing Juyo-Zufu, so, anybody could check the Oshigata of Juyo-zufu and the sword. but, the only way to check Hozon and Tokubetsuhozon kanteisho will be referring Ledger in NBTHK. and contents of the ledger is not open to public. ( I confirmed this with NBTHK.) All swords in Japan have Torokusho, so they could check with Torokusho number, but, the swords outside of Japan has no Torokusho, so, by telephone with NBTHK, we can check only characteristic sword, such as unique horimono or shape etc,. If simple signed, shinogi-zukuri without Hi,Ubu one hole with same length blade, or Osuriage mumei blades….without Torokusho number…..they are no way to verify by phone. and the second, When NBTHK find a forged paper, when the sword come to submit higher paper, they will return the sword and (invalid) paper back to the sender (with a letter that said the sword is not much with our ledger). They will not examine the blade (because the blade is not match with their document) and free of charge, They just return to the sender. If the sword (nakago) and oshigata of the paper is matched. then you find out the oshigata has changed…..This is happening sometime. some swords has confirmed by NBTHK more than one time, but, NBTHK is still returning paper and sword back to the sender….. (I confirmed this with NBTHK.) The most of cases, the owner of the sword who find out forged paper, he will sell it to dealers or auction, and dealers sell them within a few days. After a few hands, the sword and paper become normal item again... so, they are keep coming back into market, until someone try to submit higher paper… then the problem again, and goes back to market,,,, How many of them ? we never know… Because, we have never heard any news of arrested fake sword/paper maker or scandal/incidents since new Hozon/Tokubetsuhozon system late 1970' something. Fake maker(s?) are very professional and they have never cut. so they should be still active (since long time). A bit furthermore, I think that they(NBTHK) are trying to avoid their responsibility by publishing "warning (note to forged certificate)"on Tokenbijutsu journal. After they proposed "The actual confirmation", Our trading the sword with Hozon and Tokubetsuhozon paper without "The Actual confirmation" will be our own risk ? The fake maker benefit once when they make one and sold, then it makes multiple victims, because, they are always coming back to market again….NBTHK has never recall, as old papers….. (Many of old paper's swords have been modern shinsa and failed, then come back on market with old papers..) Forged Hozon/TH paper are now like Jokers in the cards. and the market outside of Japan will be recessive, because, less information and less advantage of "The Actual confirmation" of NBTHK etc., The official certificate should be like this. I think that NBTHK should consider about this matter more seriously, to solve the problem(s), not only publishing "warning". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Doesn't the paper specify the length of the sword and other details? If so....they would need to match the sword to the paper, and that isn't going to be easy. You cannot always get away with the excuse that it was shortened since. And then the paper has to match the maker of the sword, it cannot be totally different. So if you have a real NBTHK paper for a Koto smith, you have to find a sword that matches the style and maybe mei of the paper for there to be any chance the paper would be taken as that of that sword. Or you have a sword....how are you going to arrange a blank paper to add similar descriptions to? Not easy...I don't think this is as widespread or common as we are making out. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b.hennick Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I am sure that I am not the only one to see papers for sale on Ebay. No sword just the papers. So the crook can buy the papers find something similar to what the paper says and then change the oshigata tp match the sword. The paper is real but altered to match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Doesn't the paper specify the length of the sword and other details? If so....they would need to match the sword to the paper, and that isn't going to be easy. so, nobody could recognize original or changed photo to oshigata papers, even dealers or museum can not recognize. If the only thing that was changed was the photo, all one would need to do is to compare the length and mei to that written in the kantei-sho. It would be an obvious fake and there would be no issue. Clearly, if dealers or museums can't recognize these fakes, and you have to call the NBTHK to verify, the forgers are doing more than just changing the photo.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Any word that this nonsense is affecting tosogu and koshirae as well? Thank you. Buy the sword not the paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Mumei/suriage blade. If you have the stamp, nothing prevents you to change the photo on the kanteisho by the one you want to sell. Considering the length, how many people check the length of their sword with their corresponding kanteisho furthermore check out papers and you will see that a lot of blades have more or less the same length... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric H Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 If the only thing that was changed was the photo, all one would need to do is to compare the length and mei to that written in the kantei-sho. It would be an obvious fake and there would be no issue. Clearly, if dealers or museums can't recognize these fakes, and you have to call the NBTHK to verify, the forgers are doing more than just changing the photo.... ...and the fake will not show up until NBTHK has checked their ledger. Why does NBTHK not confiscate and destroy such fakted papers instead of to return them with the swords? A policy which is hard to understand. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Because they can't simply destroy other people's property, they would need a court order to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric H Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Document forgery is a crime that entails creating a document to give the appearance of legal significance to a fact that is untrue. Additionally, the forger must be attempting to give the fact the appearance of being true with the intent to defraud another. There are many different kinds of document forgery, including the falsification of identifying documents and counterfeiting money. There are certain methods people use to detect forgery, though the specific techniques vary based upon the type of forgery that the forger commits. I for one recognize a Origami issued by a organization like NBTHK as a Document. Fact is there are faked origami in circulation, but only NBTHK is in the position to identify them. By occurrence of such a fact NBTHK gives a lapidary comment and the customer/collector is left alone with a fraudulent worthless paper. Possibly the unhappy owner, who is now informed about the invalid paper, will sell the sword, and at least at this point will show up what kind of personality he is Invalid papers can easily be marked with a stamp!...without court order Example: registration document „invalid“ Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 As james said above, surely overseas NBTHK members could apply to have their paper checked against an index of papered blades? The index is not open to all, but is checked by NBTHK staff. The NBTHK simply gives the paper number and date and the attribution (just the smith name/school name/date/length? would be enough to check your paper/sword against). If your paper with that number is different from the index, then you contact NBTHK for a new one (whatever the process is) and report the name of the person/dealer you got it from. I seems simple to me...maybe just offer this service to overseas members? Of course, it would bring in a flood of inquiries so maybe the NBTHK could charge members a checking fee and so make it easier on their costs in time and staff etc. Just thinking out loud.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Possibly one issue is the sheer volume of inquiries and the time it would take to handle them. There must be a hundred thousand (or more?) H and TH kantei-sho out there. The NBTHK is rather small- they don't have more than 6 or so people in the main office. I suspect they would be overwhelmed with calls, many from outside of Japan from people who do not speak the language. I would venture it would be a lot of trouble. I assume they have all of these in a computer data base. What they could do is put it on line with a subscription service that lets people check themselves. I can't imagine that being that difficult, then again, in Japan a secret is a "beautiful thing" and in my experience, they have a strong cultural aversion to that sort of thing.... It seems that counterfeit goods are routinely confiscated in Japan: "According to the Ministry of Finance and the National Police Agency (NPA), the number of cases involving the confiscation of fake brand goods and merchandise totaled 28,135, a number both 5.7% higher than the previous year and the highest ever recorded. Of the total number of cases, 25,844, or about 91.9% of them were goods manufactured in China." Also, Japan has been active in legislating against counterfeiting: http://www.kyowapatent.co.jp/info/article/data/120402_r01.pdf While I understand Guido's comment, one would think a quasi-governmental entity like the NBTHK would be able to find a way to do more than nothing to remove these from circulation or mark them in some way as fake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bone Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 If they tweak their papers and their business model. They can declare their papers their property in perpetuity and either hold fake papers until the owner can prove they're legitimate. Or they can stamp fake papers as fake and give them back to the owners. They are the ones who issue the certs and they can update them as they see fit. It's not unknown for other orginazations to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 It seems that counterfeit goods are routinely confiscated in Japan..... Also, Japan has been active in legislating against counterfeiting: It is one thing to confiscate fake or counterfeit goods from the importers, it is quite another to confiscate them from a customer who has bought them retail. No..they cannot legally stop you in the street and confiscate your fake Nikes or 511 clothing. That is something entirely different. And I cannot help but feel we are running around like chickens yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!" We have no idea how widespread (or narrow spread) this is...it could be a handful of cases. And we do not know for sure that the NBTHK simply returns the fake papers. And we do not know if this is under control or if there are already suspects, and when this happened and what is being done behind the scenes. Remember the scandal when there were dealers having unregistered shinsakuto made to match existing papers and then aging them? Lots of panic....no crisis at the end of the day. Can we save the panic for when there are details? Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 As I am collecting blades, I don't panic. Two remarks: If you want to be sure, buy juto, tokuju blades. Nihonto zufu registered all the juyo blades with all details. To avoid the problem of fake documents, NBTHK should have issued the same books for Hozon and TH blades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 It seems that counterfeit goods are routinely confiscated in Japan..... Also, Japan has been active in legislating against counterfeiting: It is one thing to confiscate fake or counterfeit goods from the importers, it is quite another to confiscate them from a customer who has bought them retail. No..they cannot legally stop you in the street and confiscate your fake Nikes or 511 clothing. That is something entirely different.Brian I simply mentioned the confiscation of counterfeit goods in Japan to establish the fact that the government in Japan does not as a matter of course turn a blind eye to the issue, as some countries do. They have laws relating to online sales of counterfeit items, as well as on the import of counterfeit goods. Both could come into play in this case if applied. The point being, it is not unreasonable to think that something more could be done. And we do not know for sure that the NBTHK simply returns the fake papers. Brian Well, there is this: They will not examine the blade (because the blade is not match with their document) and free of charge, They just return to the sender.If the sword (nakago) and oshigata of the paper is matched. then you find out the oshigata has changed…..This is happening sometime. some swords has confirmed by NBTHK more than one time, but, NBTHK is still returning paper and sword back to the sender….. (I confirmed this with NBTHK.) Can we save the panic for when there are details? Brian All I see is concerned discussion...where is the panic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 As I am collecting blades, I don't panic. Two remarks: If you want to be sure, buy juto, tokuju blades. Nihonto zufu registered all the juyo blades with all details. To avoid the problem of fake documents, NBTHK should have issued the same books for Hozon and TH blades. How many H and TH kantei-sho do you think they issue every other month for swords? I have heard that they receive over 1000 items for shinsa each time; that is anecdotal, but I wouldn't be surprised. If roughly half pass, that is around 3000 items a year. Pretty big book! I have actually discussed doing this with the items passing US NTHK-NPO shinsa, or a selection of them, with the directors. I never pursued it but still think it would be an interesting and worthy project. OF course, there are far few items! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Do we have confirmation that the returned papers are not marked fake or otherwise? Or if those swords are not noted and investigation begun on them? It's a bit soon to be presuming things. And 4 pages of people going from hearing about a few fakes having appeared to people questioning if there will be new papers issued and if current ones are already becoming valueless counts as panic in my eyes. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Yes, Chris, but bullet proof, and every collector having a paper blade would buy them, just to be sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Do we have confirmation that the returned papers are not marked fake or otherwise? Brian That seems to be what Kunitaro san has said. It's a bit soon to be presuming things. And 4 pages of people going from hearing about a few fakes having appeared to people questioning if there will be new papers issued and if current ones are already becoming valueless counts as panic in my eyes.Brian Who said it was a "few fakes"? Is that a presumption? One man's panic is another's cautious consideration perhaps....Anyone who buys and sells NBTHK H and TH papered blades who thinks deeply about this situation should be concerned. And I think that is what we are seeing here in the discussion-concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunitaro Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Do we have confirmation that the returned papers are not marked fake or otherwise? Brian Yes, I called NBTHK and asked about this matter by myself. They said that they are returning (forged) papers and swords (without any mark or stamp). and some of papers are confirmed more than one time as Oshigata is changed, or sword is changed, They know it, because, they put small memo on thier ledger, so, they know there is fake papers around, but, the ledger is not open to public and they will not show to anybody (they said). That is why they published "warning" on Tokenbijustu. so, they can avoid their management responsibility. I feel very funny about it. I think that if faked certificates are around, NBTHK is the first victem of this criminal act. they should make big report, and ask maybe police for proper investingation. find Criminal forger, arrest them. but they have never done, report or call police... but, they are just publishing "warning" and propose "The actual confirmation". so, if we don't do "the actual confirmation" when we trade, it will be our own risk ? then I think that the forger is laughing about it, they know that they will never get cut,,,,???? I saw at least one of those forged Hozon paper, the pressed stamp was really perfect. no sign of forged,,,,( I have handled handreds of papers before) my master polisher (50 years in this field) saw it, a few big(famous) dealers saw it, NBTHK saw it, Nobody could tell it is forged. my master polisher is saying that he still can not believe it, because, the oshigata, pressed stamp are so perfect, He was saying that maybe the paper and sword is good, but, the Ledger is forged !?!? (more confusing isn;t it ?) the forger/criminal have the faked or same as real stamp, very professional, knowing NBTHK paper system very well. so, I assume that there are more than a few forged papers around... I don't want to confuse people or make problem with NBTHK, however, we need to keep our sword society in "healthy enviroment". Especially we are handling "the spirits of Samurai" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hxv Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Kunitaro san, I hesitated to enter into this discussion, but given the response of the NBTHK: seemingly cavalier attitude, lack of urgency, contrasted with the sophistication of the forgery and potentially wide-reaching implication, there is an enormous elephant in the middle of the room that everyone is pretending not to see. Is anyone suggesting, privately or publicly, that it might be an inside job? I am really not trying to be provocative, and am in no way slandering anyone or any organization. I am simply following logic. Regards, Hoanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 didn't something like this happen in late fifties? forced by Yakuza, they survived that im sure this too shall pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 didn't something like this happen in late fifties? forced by Yakuza, they survived that im sure this too shall pass. In a word, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisR Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Very interesting and also disturbing. A question would be (since I plan to submit 2 blades to shinsa in 2016), after one receives the papers for their sword, perhaps the owner makes a "certified copy" (here in the States anyway...I'm sure other countries have similar proceedures) and registers that document with the State that they live in as a "certified copy". This wouldn't help the cats that are already out of the bag, but may prevent future questions or probl;ems when bringing the swords to market. The didgital age has become a nightmare for law enforcement in so many ways, but fraud is fraud and there are simple remedies to prevent these types of things, I think....for the moment.... I know it will make me do the above if/when I get papers back (that's the rub - can they be trusted??). Curtis R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagamaki - Franco Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 after one receives the papers for their sword, perhaps the owner makes a "certified copy" One thought that crossed my mind thinking about this was since most of the origami in possession are currently issued in my name, what if it was signed across an edge of the photo, wouldn't that create a terrible headache for a forger to deal with? What other issues might that create? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almeister Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Interesting Post , However , If I'm missing something - please explain ! I can understand that this could happen with a mumei blade -- certificate may not even have to be faked if the characteristics of the blade are the same However with a signed blade -- all characters are translated on the certificate , as well as characteristics of the blade The governing authority issues a certificate if the blade passes , so as discussed already - a duplicate of the certificate is held by the governing authority - the certificate has been issued a #number , the certificate is also given a sectional stamp that joins the two certificates perfectly together before they are separated ( is this what you call the pressed stamp ? ) This stamp uniquely can verify the authenticity of the certificate by perfectly adjoining the counterpart certificate - this side of things cannot be faked - however both original certificates must be on hand at this time The question I ask is : Example -- We by a vehicle & we can search history/stolen/money owing on it etc.. via the vehicle identification # - provided identification # is correct Why could we not scan/send the governing authority a copy of the certificate & pictures of the blade/tang etc.. as a form of a primary check , from there if something doesn't look right - then the authority demand to have all items sent over to be visually viewed first hand Obviously this would only be a primary type check & would work for the benefit of the owner/purchaser to have some piece of mind that things looked OK Going back to original post , we are talking about "Fake Certificates " - I'm sure this type of primary check would help to eliminate fake certificates without having to go to the expense/stress of sending everything back to Japan ???? This could be done on line & even give the governing authority extra income Cheers , AlanK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Lots of things don't add up here. For these to be the good fakes they are being presented as, the details on the certificate must match exactly the sword. This cannot happen unless the entire certificate is being printed to match a sword. But then Kunitaro san says the same certificate has been presented with different swords. How is this possible? You can change a photo, but the stamp cannot then be added again as it overlaps the paper I suspect. You would need to be printing brand new certificates with custom photos and then stamping them. But this is not what we are told is happening. Sorry, but there is a huge amount of info lacking here. I suggest we stop jumping to confusions until the facts present themselves better. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Here it is as simple as I can explain it: real kantei-sho are being doctored to match a different sword. The picture with stamp is replaced with a fake and the length and mei, which are the only physical descriptions of the blade that appear on an NBTHK H or TH kantei-sho, are apparently erased and rewritten. The torokusho registration info, which also appears on the reverse of the kantei-sho, would also have to be changed to match that of the fake sword. If the sword has remained in Japan since the original NBTHK submission, you can call the NBTHK and they can check by the torokusho registration number in their records to confirm if it matches the torokusho number now on the papers/license with the sword, to see if it is the same. If the sword no longer has a torokusho registration number because it has been exported out of Japan, or has been exported and reimported (given a new number) they can only confirm by visual inspection of both the sword and kaneti-sho together, in hand. Kunitaro san never said the kantei-sho was presented with different swords. He said the same sword with bad kantei-sho is recycled through the system over and over as new owners send it in for higher papers and it gets sent back and then resold and then sent in for higher papers and sent back and resold and sent in.... There is info lacking. I recommend familiarizing ones' self with a H or TH kantei-sho to understand exactly what is being discussed. It wouldn't hurt to reread Kunitaro san's comments a few time as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Chris, I suggest you read prior comments a bit clearer too. Or perhaps wait until valid and confirmed info becomes available. It's not always about getting in the last word. some of papers are confirmed more than one time as Oshigata is changed, or sword is changed So no....your conclusion is false. Also, it is not a simple process to just stamp the new papers with a forged stamp. That stamp overlaps, no? You can't stamp half a stamp. Do you know what is involved in removing descriptions/length/torokusho info from papers and adding new descriptions to match the rest of the writing? I would go so far as to say that is nonsense. It would be easier to make up entire papers. So yes..information is lacking. Conjecture isn't. Suggest we wait for further clarification from someone in the same organization. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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