cabowen Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Anyone see this in the last two issues of the NBTHK's "Token Bijutsu"? I have heard that there are now fake Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon kantei-sho out there. The papers are real but the photos/seal have been faked. Apparently these came to light when people submitted swords for higher level papers; when the NBTHK checked the records for the lower level paper, there were none... The NBTHK is advising those with concern to send the papers and sword to them for inspection. Not much help to those outside of Japan. From what I hear, there are some unhappy people in Japan. There is a concern that if this becomes a big enough issue, the NBTHK will change their papers, again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken-Hawaii Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Welcome to the digital age when anything & everything can be faked.... If the Secret Service can't figure out whether a $100 bill is faked (or how people can get into the White House), think of how much easier it would be to fake relatively simple NBTHK papers. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 They should just create an online register where NBTHK members can look up all the papers. I'm sure it'd sell a lot more memberships plus we'd have a good source of oshigata for every swordsmith I imagine it may be a lot of work to digitize them all however. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John A Stuart Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 I don't think it would be a great hardship to archive them. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 If buyers/sellers can't trust or verify papers, this uncertainty has the potential to become a huge issue. Stay tuned, there will be more to come I am afraid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Thank you for the update. I am wondering how extensive their archives are. KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Archives are not the issue as they have extensive records. To date, however, they will not comment unless they have the suspect paper and sword in hand. I always wondered why they would not reissue a lost paper if requested by the original applicant. They could, but they won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattle1 Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Hello Chris: We would all like to know more. You say that the NBTHK won't re-issue for lost papers. How does that universe compare with the sometime mention one sees about a lost Juyo paper and then the display of some sort of paper, which is different from the usual Juyo paper, but appears to be a replacement? I cannot locate one at the moment, but I've seen a number on dealer sites in the past. Arnold F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1tallsword Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 thank you chris for this information. do we have more specific info on the differences of the fake papers opposed to the real? i know you say picture and stamp, sure would be nice to see a fake compared to the real thing, just to see how close they are, if the only way to tell them apart is to call the NBTHK that is a little disturbing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Hello Chris: We would all like to know more. You say that the NBTHK won't re-issue for lost papers. How does that universe compare with the sometime mention one sees about a lost Juyo paper and then the display of some sort of paper, which is different from the usual Juyo paper, but appears to be a replacement? I cannot locate one at the moment, but I've seen a number on dealer sites in the past. Arnold F. They will not reissue Hozon or TH. For Juyo, they will not reissue the original paper, but will reissue a verification paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 thank you chris for this information. do we have more specific info on the differences of the fake papers opposed to the real? i know you say picture and stamp, sure would be nice to see a fake compared to the real thing, just to see how close they are, if the only way to tell them apart is to call the NBTHK that is a little disturbing.. From what has been said, it appears they are using an original paper so they are very close indeed. One reason that people are upset would seem to be the fact, as I understand it, that you can't just call the NBTHK...they want to see the paper and sword to verify.... Let me repeat that I am reporting this second hand. I have not seen the original info as posted in the Token Bijutsu the last two issues. If someone has the last two issues and wishes to post this, I will try to verify. I have heard it from more than one Japanese source so I have some confidence in the truth of it or I wouldn't have posted it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattle1 Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Hello: Thanks for the clarification and confirmation Chris. I have never seen or heard anything but those Juyo replacements and understand that those are issued only after very careful research by the NBTHK to assure themselves that the presented sword is the same as the one originally granted a Juyo. We all look forward to further information. Arnold F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kunitaro Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 偽造証書にご注意ください! 偽造証書が発見されております。 指定書や認定書だけでなく、保存、特別保存鑑定書もご注意ください。 証書の台帳照会は、電話でも対応しておりますが、物件及び証書をご持参いただく現物確認が確実かと存じます。 現物確認の際は事前に管理課までご連絡のうえ、ご来館ください。 *************************************************************************** Please Note to Forged Certificate ! Forged certificates have been discovered. Not only Shiteisho(指定書) and Ninteisho(認定書), but Hozon and Tokubetsu hozon kanteisho(鑑定書) as well. We suport ledger queries over telephone, however we propose "The Actual confirmation" that you bring the item(sword) and deed(paper) to museum to any certainty. for "The actual confirmation" visitors, Please contact our Administration in advance. ******************************************************************************* * Shiteisho (Juyo-token) 重要刀剣指定書 * Ninteisho (Kicho/Tokubetsukicho/Koshu-Tokubetsukicho) 貴重、特別貴重、甲種特別貴重認定書 * Kanteisho (Hozon/Tokubetsuhozon) 保存、特別保存鑑定書 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Thank you very much Kunitaro san.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 So much for papers. Now what is going to happen when you buy by auction a papered blade? We have a French expression "rançon de la gloire" "ransom of Glory" Are NTHK npo or Yoshikawa organizations subject to such attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 There haven't been any instances of fake NTHK-NPO papers that I am aware of... This could get really ugly....glad I collect gendaito.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 You are awfully right Chris and I am very glad I collect quality blades and not papers. It is going to be a real problem for Nihontophiles outside Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 If the NBTHK papers are being forged it would seem logical that other organisations could be/ would be as well. The fact that the NBTHK papers are higher profile more abundant (I would guess) and generally more highly regarded within the dealing community make them a more obvious target for such deception and forgeries more likely to be found. As has often been said before the paper should support what you see not be the reason to buy. However with modern buying practice of purchasing unseen via the internet papers have taken on an increasingly impotant role in transactions. As with all other areas an opportunity to make a dishonest $ rarely goes unused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mywei Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 God knows how many of these fake papers are floating out there... I have a feeling they have only scratched the surface with this fiasco. Hopefully we can get examples of these new type fake papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanetoyo Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think that paper is change in the near future. The paper causes inflation. The present paper will lose value. Be carefull..... Nakamura 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think that is the scenario that is upsetting so many- all the current papers basically become worthless. Brilliant business model.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 If they do change the papers then it would be a good opportunity to modernize. In that scenario they need to be seen to be doing something about the forgeries by making all new papers easily verifiable. A paper change will be interesting as with hozon papers get the same stigma that kicho papers currently seem to have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think that is the scenario that is upsetting so many- all the current papers basically become worthless. Brilliant business model.... Chris, The above comment might be misinterpreted suggesting the NBTHK was in some way involved creating the situation to generate new business While I am sure that wasnt your intention prhaps you could confirm. regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Indeed. Especially considering your vested interest, I would be less likely to comment personally. All papers and certificates where value is concerned can, have been and will be faked at some point. In an era where money is counterfeited perfectly, it is logical that there are those who will seek to benefit. In this case, I expect the small group responsible will be apprehended, as the buyers will know where they bought the swords, and they can be tracked back to source. Not a hard one, but just like money is updated with new security methods, so should certificates. Does old currency become valueless, or do people just take more precautions when using it? This isn't a huge deal. If you have a sword with good provenance and/or excellent workmanship..nothing takes that away. Know your dealer..that's what it comes down to. As far as examples of these fakes go..what is the point? It has already been mentioned the papers are real, it is the photo and stamp that are forged. Maybe new swords have been manufactured to match existing certificate specs. That was already brought out here before. And some people were already fingered in that plot. Once again, I suspect we are far more alarmed about this than the Japanese are. Stands to reason that since the NBTHK papers are regarded higher than other papers, their origami would be the main target of nefarious plotting. Out of thousands of swords out there, are we even talking about 0.1% or less? Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think that is the scenario that is upsetting so many- all the current papers basically become worthless. Brilliant business model.... Chris, The above comment might be misinterpreted suggesting the NBTHK was in some way involved creating the situation to generate new business While I am sure that wasnt your intention prhaps you could confirm. regards Paul I am in no way accusing the NBTHK of creating the situation. How they choose to handle it is, however, entirely up to them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1tallsword Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 I agree with brian. some issues get blown out of proportion. as he mentioned new money is made and does the old money become worthless? NO! now if the NBTHK themselves started advertising and printing write ups stating that there will be new papers and the old should become worthless ,then i know myself would be in anger and question their reason and motive behind the whole fiasco. if 100 cars out of 100,000 made have an issue are all garbage? NO! they get recalled and corrected. as brian said this situation will work itself out. just because a small portion of papers have been found fake does not mean we grant them all garbage.. what about all the folks that have attended shinsa or sent there items in, they know their papers are good! I know most fellow collectors are very good at judging a good sword, reading papers, matching papers to blades and calling gimmies...ect. and the collectors that are not so good have forums like this one to get help. as brian said its not hard to follow backwards down the line and find the sketch bags that did this, might even be one person? in a community like this where we are always on guard even 3 papers coming in fake could make this kind of wave...heck do we even know how many have been found? the fact that its come to light tells me the cats out of the bag and whom ever was behind it will be running scared and will not be proceeding with making any new fake papers.. and if the so called papers are real but the picture and seal are fake does this mean they did the writing too? if these papers are so highly guarded, how the heck does one get there hands on some to print up?? if this is true and the papers are the real papers the NBTHK use and not made elsewhere then i have this question.. was there a theft? or whom is the person in charge of taking care of these papers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted October 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Look at the current value of the prior NBTHK papers and maybe you will start to see why people in Japan are concerned..... In any case, I posted this as a head's up for those that may have occasion to buy a papered sword. Make of it what you will. I have spoken to several people in Japan, thus I know first hand that there are those who are alarmed and think this could be a very big deal. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, specious or not, so feel free to disagree. I am just reporting what I have been told. Myself, I will wait and see where it goes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1tallsword Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 thank you chris for keeping us all informed. although I can not speak for others,I really appreciate the time and efforts you put in to keeping us all informed on many topics. I always appreciate and respect your opinion and knowledge, thank you very much...cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattle1 Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Hello" For the start of this very interesting and cautionary thread, thanks to Chris Bowen, and for the confirming NBTHK notice and translation, thanks indeed to Kunitaro. I am left a little "historically" confused on the comparison between the older Kicho and Tokubetsu Kicho paper references in comparison with what appears to be the new set of fakes which mimic Hozon ande Tokubetsu Hozon papers. It is my understanding that the older papers were not fakes generated by some unknown party, but rather genuine NBTHK papers, perhaps regionally issued, that were provided due to duress or perhaps a bribe, or something like that; whereas the "new fakes" are entire fabrications, using genuine paper, but not in any sense being issued by the NBTHK. Can anyone clarify? Arnold F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Dear Arnold I cant comment on the current forgeries as this is the first I have heard of it. However my understanding regarding the problem with older papers is exactly the same as yours. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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