tadayoshi waki expert help on mei

[Alex A]

Hi Karl, without numerous examples and evidence, its speculation (as mentioned)

 

However, I admire your effort and find all this interesting:)

[KarlPeterSmith]

... before I say anymore on the sword and certificate Lee has kindly posted as reference. As I wish to be VERY precise...

 

Just so that I know what I'm looking at... and about to talk about. 

 

Nidai Tadahiro (...as no-one was allowed to sign Tadayoshi for the 1st Gen. whilst he was alive) ... hence Tadahiro being on the blade.

+DAI-MEI – student smith signing his teacher's name. (So the cert is saying it definitely not a 1st Gen Tadayoshi signature) as it was signed on his behalf. 

 

So this is basically one sword from the factory that a student has signed right? Clarify that exactly for me.

 

*It looks like an eldest son Hiroshige blade to me ... who does an up and down chisel mark above the FUJI of FUJIWARA and single chisel marks (one being a moon) either side of the hanging 'J'... where-as the Omi alway has 4  a bit like this '=J='.   

 

When comparing 2 suspects... look at swords signed after one has died. It rules out this 'speculation'.

[omidaijo]

 

The famous diamond at the top of the Hiro Kanji on a Tadayoshi (probably dai-mei due scruffy signature and Musashi Daijo mei, but....???....) NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon papers and atobori (unfortunately) dragon horimono ...

 

 

Also a Tadakuni with similar 'diamond ' on the top of the Ma kanji in 'Harima' Daijo. (NBTHK Hozon papers):

 

Both diamonds are unique to the shodai in each case, and the forgers knew this!

 

[omidaijo]

With regards to Lee's sword...

 

It was made in 1632 whilst the Shodai was still alive.

Meito Zukan shows examples the same as this saying Nidai Dai-mei for the Shodai.

 

The signature is for the Shodai  (not the Nidai) since it has Fujiwara Tadahiro ?

As such it is technically a Dai-mei for the Shodai. I think the NBTHK didn't make this distinction, and went the simple route of Nidai in their appraisal.

 

If you check the sword, it confirms who made it, being more Shodai than Nidai!

 

Question to lose sleep over: If the Shodai made it why would the Nidai sign it?

Speculation: Being groomed for the imminent takeover of the School with the impending death of the 1st Gen.??.

 

 

 

Meito Zukan:

 

 

[omidaijo]

Tsunobi tanto (oversize at 1 Shaku 2 sun).

More diamonds: Fudo Myo horimono:

Equally scruffy signature ... NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon and the usual atobori attribtion (sob sob)

 

 

 

[omidaijo]

I think we are going to lose some readers here........

 

 

"....... (...as no-one was allowed to sign Tadayoshi for the 1st Gen. whilst he was alive) .."

 

Technically WRONG:

Shuho the priest?

But I see where you are going.

Got to be really careful using Tadayoshi and Tadahiro

 

 

 

". hence Tadahiro being on the blade."

 

NOT REALLY:

Tadayoshi was Tosa no Kami at this time.

(1624-1632 OR 33???)

This Tadahiro was the original Shodai (1598-1632) so he/the Nidai/deshi?? signed this sword Tadahiro around 1632.

The reason Tadahiro is on the blade is because Tosa no Kami didn't make it, and Shodai probably did (albeit during his Nidai mei period).

 

 

"+DAI-MEI – student smith signing his teacher's name. (So the cert is saying it definitely not a 1st Gen Tadayoshi signature) as it was signed on his behalf"

 

Yup assuming you mean  "not a 1st Gen Tadayoshi SIGNATURE"

It is attributing the sword to the Nidai from the SIGNATURE .

It is on a Shodai Tadayoshi made sword ( I think --- I used to own it so have studied it -- full of chikei) when he used the name Tadahiro.

There is only ONE Shodai Tadayoshi and only ONE Tosa no Kami Tadayoshi, and it is on a 1st Gen Tadayoshi sword, when he signed Tadahiro.

Are we all confused yet.... haha

 

It is common to refer to Sodai Tadayoshi as having a Tadayoshi Mei period and a Tadahiro Mei period.

When someone refers to "Tadayoshi Mei", probably best to specify "Tosa no Kami" or "Shodai Tadayoshi" 

 

 

 

. "So this is basically one sword from the factory "(School/Kaji sounds better!)    

that a student has signed right? Clarify that exactly for me."

 

That is correct.

 

*It looks like an eldest son Hiroshige blade to me ... who does an up and down chisel mark above the FUJI of FUJIWARA and single chisel marks (one being a moon) either side of the hanging 'J'... where-as the Omi alway has 4  a bit like this '=J='.   

 

 

That's a mighty leap.

 

Sanoma Mitsuru Hiroshige C1656?

Eldest son?......... Shodai had one illegitimate son according to all the references I have seen-- the Nidai, and he also had an earlier adopted Yohinobu (who got the boot... I bet he was pissed off).

Hiroshige was student of the Shodai, not son. Nidai Tadahiro would have been the senior smith being the son. SO it is more likely that the Nidai would have signed than Hiroshige.

Looking at the Hiroshige mei I have the following: Unfortunately only a 5 kanji mei , and the only one I have.

    

 

Now, I like where you were heading with this as it is always fun trying to Sherlock Holmes the past .... so I cut out Hiroshige's mei (on the left) and pasted it into a composite of Lee's sword (2nd from Left) , and those in Meito Zukan  (two on the right).

Unfortunately I see nothing close enough to call Hiroshige as someone signing this particular mei. Some similarities, but not enough --- Unless of course you hold the view that they are ALL by Hiroshige ....in which case you should send your research to the NBTHK !!!  But they arent that similar so cant be all by the same guy ..... arrgggggjhhhhh.

 

 

"When comparing 2 suspects... look at swords signed after one has died. It rules out this 'speculation'."

 

Almost impossible as few were dated.

And where is the fun in ruling out speculation..... we wouldnt be having this fine discussion.

 

 

:-)

 

 

 

 

[omidaijo]

CORRECTION:

 

I did say this:

"NOT REALLY:

Tadayoshi was Tosa no Kami at this time.

(1624-1632 OR 33???)

This Tadahiro was the original Shodai (1598-1632) so he/the Nidai/deshi?? signed this sword Tadahiro around 1632."

 

Shodai DID NOT sign this sword because he would have used the diamond!!

So signed by the Nidai or other deshi.

And you are going to say why wasnt it signed after the Shodai died in 1632 ... I am going off Meito Zukan ...no idea !

[SwordGuyJoe]

Tsunobi tanto (oversize at 1 Shaku 2 sun).

More diamonds: Fudo Myo horimono:

Equally scruffy signature ... NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon and the usual atobori attribtion (sob sob)

 

 

1st Gen Tadahiro Fudo-myo 009.jpg

 

1st Gen Tadahiro Fudo-myo ALL.jpg

Lovely horimono on this one!

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I would say the waki shown by Lee Bray is not a Daimei but an earlier work of nidai Tadahiro as written on origami.

[KarlPeterSmith]

To Omi-Daijo ...post #33 above

 

 

You show 2 pictures...

 

This 1st is a Tadayoshi and I quote you here "The famous diamond at the top of the Hiro Kanji on a Tadayoshi (probably dai-mei due scruffy signature and Musashi Daijo mei, but....???....) NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon papers and atobori (unfortunately) dragon horimono ..."

 

Well...Your pic does not show any of the 4 characters needed for the 'Musashi Daijo' title... your blade contains the simpler '(no)ju' which simply means 'living at', 'inhabitant of'.

 

I'm sure you posted the wrong pic there... as if it's true --- and that's what the NBTHK papers say > RIP-THEM-UP-NOW.

 

The 2nd Tadakuni picture you post you comment about. I'm saying nothing. 

but OMG... you've made my day with the first comment.

 

FOUR! Duck.

[KarlPeterSmith]

To Omi-Daijo ...post #36

 

You're looking at the wrong Hiroshige... and when I identified him as the ELDEST I presumed you knew that Hiroshige had other brothers... and I simplified it by saying the 'eldest brother'... you knew that Hiroshige was one of many brothers right???

 

The one you reference is NOT the Eldest.

 

Don't worry.. it took me ages to see that the one everyone raves about is actually the 2nd brother... and some books classify the 2nd brother as Hiroshige 1 and Hiroshige 2 is actually the older brother > the elder brother.  And not a lot of people know that.  

 

No way on Earth was i saying Hiroshige was any progeny of Tadayoshi. Or I would have said. I'm very literal like that.

[Brian]

Karl,

I think Roger is taking a huge amount of time and effort sharing this info with us, and has also been remarkably honest about areas where he himself is not sure. It is rare for us to gain access to education like this (besides paying huge money trying to find his book) and I also thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on the subject.

I hope you, he and others who collect Hizento will keep this subject light hearted, view it with an open mind, and keep the debate friendly so that we can all continue to be educated here. Thanks Roger for sharing your many years of experience.

 

- B -

[AndyMcK]

This is starting to get interesting.. more by every post.. HOLD! Opening a good red to enjoy this chain more.

 

Lot of information shared even if some of the member(s) seem to be on high quality x. *chuckles*

 

Antti

[Isocyanide]

As a new Hizento addict I'm diggin this.

[omidaijo]

OK here we go.
Got a comfy seat and some popcorn......
Better concentrate on this or you will get left behind in the class and get a "D" mark.......
 
"I would say the waki shown by Lee Bray is not a Daimei but an earlier work of nidai Tadahiro as written on origami. "
 
Well could be ........Yes it is possible but I think we need to consider the sword characterisitics + the mei + the meikan collectively... ..........Clearly you have studied both the sword in hand and the meikan  and have the oshigata  in front of you......well at least you have the oshigata which is 1/3 of the way there!  You consider the Meito Zukan to  be factually wrong, and the actual sword characteristics to be those of the Nidai not the Shodai (and ignored what I posted). The sword had been in my collection for 20 years and Lee's for the last year here in Hong Kong, and I was just wondering how you managed to get hold of it to study the unusual hataraki... Similarly we had better all go and rip up the meito Zukan because apparently they got that wrong as well? Absolutely correct, lets rip it all up --- papers, zukan and opinion!!
 
And what pray tell are your thoughts on two smiths in the same kaji signing using the same name Tadahiro at the same time?
 
Isn't the definition of a dai-mei a sword signed by the deshi for the master ....using the masters name (.... ieTadahiro!). It isn't about using Musashi Daijo or Ju or Junin, it is about the use of "Tadahiro". Why isnt it from later than 1632 ie after the death of the Shodai... because the Nidai didn't sign this way after the Shodai died.
 
ergo----- it has to be a dai-mei for the shodai.
Agreed so far?
The only close contender (that I have data for) is Nidai.
Backed up by the Zukan. 
 
I think the above points are enough to say a dai-mei by the Nidai, but I agree it is bordering on speculation by Fujishiro and others (me included).
Lee put it rather succinctly: "Given it's educated speculation about something not well documented in a foreign language four hundred years ago, I think you'd be forgiven for a few mistakes".
 
"This 1st is a Tadayoshi and I quote you here "The famous diamond at the top of the Hiro Kanji on a Tadayoshi (probably dai-mei due scruffy signature and Musashi Daijo mei, but....???....) NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon papers and atobori (unfortunately) dragon horimono ..."
........but OMG... you've made my day with the first comment."
 
Great, and glad the simple things in life make your day so very happy and satisfying. We are here to please and wish for the same, unfortunately .....
For the rest of us it is worth being aware of the School ternminolgy and Queens English.
"A Tadayoshi" as opposed to "THE Tadayoshi".
 
"A Tadayoshi" is used collectively to encompass the entire Tadayoshi lineage (known as MAINLINE hizento, as opposed to WAKIHIZENTO such as Tadakuni. Remember the discussion... diamonds..... Tadakuni, Tadayoshi, and some other smith pulled out of the bag. "A Tadayoshi" clarifes which School we are talking about.  Sorry, I should always write for the lowest common denominator ...my mistake,  and I should have written  "on a Tadayoshi SCHOOL SWORD" or even on  "The Tadayoshi" or for those heading for a "D" in class, "THE Tadahiro". I do hope the explanation on Tadayoshi vs Tadahiro mei circa 1624 didn't go to waste on other readers.
 
"Well...Your pic does not show any of the 4 characters needed for the 'Musashi Daijo' title..."  Did I miss something here? The oshigata referred to clearly says "Musahi Daijo Fujiwara Tadahiro" and has a diamond in it. What did I miss?
 
"Four?"   D mate!
 
For the others falling about the cheap seats laughing..... when talking about the Shodai (sorry Kurt, just to clarify for you, THE Shodai Hizen Tadayoshi swordsmith, a human being on Earth known as Hashimoto Shinsaemon, son of Hsahimoto Michihiro, born in 1572 in Takahise as opposed to Tosa no Kami Tadayoshi aka Munetsugu, the former using a diamond only in his Hiro Kanji) , when talking about him and using the common term ' "Musashi Daijo", this refers refers to his signature change period from 1624 to his death in 1632. That is the use of the Tadahiro mei in this period, and incidentally the reported extensive use of deshi. His signature again gets scrappy and different examples appear, so you have to look at the sword. This was a gift to forgers! I digress, but the use of "Musahi Daijo" collectively refers to Shodai Tadayoshi during his Tadahiro mei period, although you could also say "Musashi Daijo Mei" to be more specific to the actual signature....... phew.... did we follow this or have a commercial /natural break....... I guess this is why there is so much confusion about the names and terms in the Tadayoshi School, and apparently so much to get excited about.
 
 
 
From 1630+ he (Shodai Tadayoshi, Hashimoto Shinsaemon, born in.......)  signed simply "Hizen Kuni Ju Fujiwara Tadahiro" (whether he stopped signing Musashi Daijo in 1630, or continued to 1632 I haven't studied because I never though about it before. off the top of my head I think I have seen late dated Musahi Daijo tilte.   Does it matter.... yes because if he stopped signing Musashi Daijo,after 1630, it adds weight to the dai-mei theory we are all getting excited about. According to Meitô Zukan Vol. 7, Masahiro signed dai-mei for the Shodai around 1624, and again around 1631-32. The Nidai probably only signed dai-mei around 1632 due to his young age, and very little is known of Yoshinobu dai-mei (if any). One area of concern is that there is no definitive work attributed to deshi so it is all speculation....Its not like the deshi signed "Hizen Kuni ....xxxxx....Deshi" !      Meito Zukan by Fujishiro goes there a bit on dai-mei, as does Egushi and some other work I read somewhere.  I have never heard of Hiroshige signing dai-mei in any of my previous research (doesn't mean it didnt happen of course, and I think it unlikely for reasons given before, and I am getting more senile by the day). So we need to see some references and some oshigata of Shodai Hiroshige, and preferably look at his work in the flesh.... all a bit difficult here. What is really significant for the common collector in the West is that there is that grey area--- a KNOWN grey area. This opens the door wide open for the forgers, and they get a crow bar right in there followed by a hydraulic jack, and prize open a wide crevace, using blades that are really close by other Hizen swordsmiths, and changing the mei. Was there dai-mei. Yes, for sure. Were there forgeries within the School itself, Yes, for sure . Have we all seen them---yup, and I have a few good ones (not all on purpose!!) in my colection and I like to look at them because the blades whisper to you after a loooooong time studying them. If you sit quietly, long enough, an listen closely with your ear just near the monouchi, and your eyes focused on the bottom two kanji , you can just hear a faint whisper that says.......... "Fool" ! Seriously, they are gimei because something is wrong -- you just have to spot it and the bottom two kanji are the best help.
 
 
I believe I said I only have ONE Hiroshige example. Yes you are correct Kurt there were reportedly more than one generation... reportedly. Lets not forget a lot of the work was written in the old days looking at gimei without the luxury of a dual core microprocessor! The one I posted I have listed  in my records as 1st Gen , which clearly could be a mistake. Maybe you could post examples of each gen side by side as I am sure we would all like to be enlightened.... I would for sure and would save digging through the thousands of Hizen oshigata littering my "I love me room".
 
Did my drivel on why it is unlikely to be Hiroshige as a deshi signing for the Shodai go to waste...... or was Shodai Tadayoshi on his last few Tadahiro mei swords before he died using the bottle washer to sign his swords, casting the high ranking Masahiro and Nidai Tadahiro into the canal in favour of Hiroshige --- Hiroshige who? It is worth stating here again .....it is all opinion, I think we can all look at the Zukan signautures and Lee's, and see they are pretty much identical, but I really would like to see a confirmed, papered example of Shodai Hiroshige's work to compare...
 
Now we have some fairly heavy banter going on here with some even heavier logic and 'soupson' of specualtion and humour.
It is healthy as long as we do not start slinging the mud around. But you still get a "D" and not a "four" ... haha.
 
 
Enough on all this to and fro......
 
Now a few other additions to enlighten the voyeaurs amongst us.....
 
Steve, since you are starting out  on Hizento, be careful on understanding the signatures for the mainline (Tadayoshi)
Shodai Tadyoshi changed his name to Tadahiro in 1624
Speculated it was done to give Munetsugu the head priest the now famous Name Tadayoshi, so Munetsugu signs Tosa no Kami Tadayoshi.
Shodai Tadayoshi signs Tadahiro, 
gives the name to his illegitimate son as Nidai Tadahiro.
Tadahiro has a son, and he signs ONLY Tadayoshi as the 3rd Gen.since his father (2nd Gen)  runs the school signing Tadahiro
3rd gen dies young whilst thee Nidai is still alive.
3rd Gen has a son, the 4th Gen who signs dai-mei Tadahiro for his grandfather the Nidai, then Tadayosh when he takes over the school.
The scene is now set for the younger subsequent smiths to sign Tadahiro until their father dies and they then uses Tadayoshi.
excpet 8th Gen who ONLY signed Tadayoshi because he took over the , School aged 8.
 
 Clear as mud?
 
Tadayoshi/Tadahiro = same school = same line, except Tosa.
Only one Shodai Tadayoshi who also signed Tadahiro.
 
Its all good stuff for the Hizento addict, and bloody mindboggling for the heathens who aren't.
Of all the oshigata I see, around 95% are gimei.
Either that or swords are slowly crossing over from a parrallel universe.
 
 
Light relief and a reward for reading to here.....
 
 

 

Atobori according to Tabnobe (sob)
 
 

[omidaijo]

And my favourite piece.......

 

Circa 1614

 

[omidaijo]

2nd favorite.

 

Early 2nd Gen within a month of taking over the Masahiro School --- 3 body.

 

[omidaijo]

Tosa No Kami

(Sorry about the poor pictures)

 

 

 

 

 

[omidaijo]

Munetsugu 

(Eguchi postulates he became Tosa no Kami)

 

 

 

[omidaijo]

Tadakuni 1

2 body.

 

 

 

Spot the difference......

 

                       

 

 

 

 

(Note the zogan tameshimei on the sword, but not the oshigata !

Replaced gold done In Japan before I bough it. The edge lines to the gold are not crisp which is a dead giveaway)

 

 

[omidaijo]

And what say you on this little puppy:

 

               

 

 

 

 

Poor images .. sorry.

Yoshikawa saw it a few years ago and said "Hizen Kaji late copy of early Shodai Tadayoshi)" and pinked it!

He said the Horimono was intentionally made thin to make it look older.....

I would have said outright gimei ,.......

 

 

 

 

[omidaijo]

Karl,

 

Now I am humbly appologetic.... crushed.

I admit defeat --- I got your name wrong. Sorry.

 

Call me Robert!

[omidaijo]

When I find the (yes THE)  Tadayoshi Katana. dated 1819 I will post it ...!

NBTHK Gimei with a signature that looks remarkably like the 4th.

OK big deal I hear you say.

 

So this leads me to............. Sorry Brian/Lee... you have heard all this before.... gimei during the early 8th gen days.

 

 

Now the 8th was only about 16 when the 6th died Dec 1815 and the 7th died Feb 1816. A hundred or more smiths running around the kaji and the head MAINLINE man snuffs it leaving his sick son, who then snuffs it a few months later leaving the grandson  (8th Gen)who was a 'boy' ----during a sword depression and the next civil war 20 years away......Oh s**t!

 

OK chaps we have two options .... down tools for 5 years until we train him up, cash the gold, and sell the wife,kids and concubines (to the cries of "no... not the concubines"!), and eat grass with some rice for a while .............., OR we can run off a few (err.......thousand) gimei in the meantime, sign them all Tadayoshi as "Deshi" and "Dai-Mei" on behalf of the spotty teenager, and no-one will know for a few hundred years until Bill Gates and the NMB arrive.....just dont tell anyone in the meantime.

 

My bet is on the latter!

But using up all the stock swords first.Hey presto a heap of really great gimei.... I mean a tons of them.

 

 

8th signed his own swords around 1820, but up until then there were only dai-saku dai-mei?

 

Dang -- where is the oshigata.........

 

 

 

 

 

Robert (that's me paying penance Karl)

[cuttingedge59]

Roger ,

Absolutely bloody fantastic.

A good aquaintance here in Nz has talked about your knowledge and your book so a buzz to hear from the man. I believe a Daito he once owned is featured

in your book . another really good bloke.

Cheers

Chris NZ

[Jim P]

Hi Roger, A big thank you ! It's not often we have post's of this caliber on Hizento   

 

 

[Jean]

To be clear for me, it is the first time

[Alex A]

 , I can see why folk go down the armour route 

[Brian]

At the end of this, we are going to have to get someone like Gabriel to do some sort of flow chart to explain it all.

My head hurts

[paulb]

Thank you Roger

reading your post took me back to discussions long ago sitting on your houseboat in HK and drinking (far too much) beer. I am still living down that experience at home (rule to oneself NEVER is it a good idea to call your wife from the other side of the world when you are sitting on a ferry in Hong Kong harbour and have been socialising with Robertshaw for more than 12 hours )

[Jacques D.]

 

As said above, the NBTHK origami says nidai Tadahiro and i have no reason to disagree.

 

There is an interesting daimei by nidai Tadahiro in Fujishiro Shinto Hen page 209 (sorry no camera for the moment), and if my eyes do not fool me we can see the famous diamond shaped atari.