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Cutting test Katana with extra long Nagasa


Nickupero

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alright guys, soon I'll be taking a break... working extra hard and not having time to enjoy the short but beautiful summers Montreal has to offer, but before I do that I thought I'd show you this. Because of the price range I don't feel comfortable disclosing the price publicly on a piece like this but the talk of Cutting test blades has been recently discussed and I thought some of you might appreciate. I will note that the sword is well over the $10k mark for those of you that might be genuinely interested, Moderators I know its the rules so if you tell me I don't have a choice then I'll update it with the price, or the other option would be to move it to general nihonto discussion, whichever you prefer.

 

Anyways back on the the blade, it is signed "Bizen no Kami Minamoto Sukekuni", wakamono ranked smith and there is a 2 body cutting test that was preformed, kanji is 擁一身雄揮両胴断 which i think translates "cutting off two body, tighten and wield a blade nobly". Whats particularly interesting about his one is the extra large Kanji on both gold and silver, that and the incredibly long nagasa of about 75cm / 29.53 inches. Very healthy piece in a very healthy polish. Comes with NBTHK hozon and a quality made shirasaya.

 

Donation will be happily honoured if sold here!!!

The link to my site is http://nihontoart.com/item-details.php?id=119 , but I haven't listed the price.

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Nick,

I don't like to break rules. Hard to enforce them the next time for others. On the other hand, love seeing stuff like this and Darcy's stuff listed, especially with NMB special prices. If it is less than $20K, how about we call it $20K negotiable?

Or $30K negotiable...or whatever is close enough?

Love this one. The silver and gold together are really striking and beautifully done. Shows how much of an art a siganture can be. Wonder if this one made it into Markus's book.

 

Brian

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Can someone explain the reluctance in putting a price on a sales item? I never quite understood the POR thing....

 

Like you Chris I also find it difficult, seeing this as a for'sale' item. I could understand offers around $******* will be considered.

"But well over $10k" whats that? $20K, 30k, 40k? all well over.

 

This guide I thought was understandable, but now I am not so sure: "If you are selling something, please post a price indication. Do not ask people to contact you for the price. If you do not have an exact price, then please put a rough guide to what you are after, and mention that the price isn't firm or is negotiable. For sale posts without a price will be deleted." :dunno:

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I understand it sometimes with high level swords, such as Darcy offers and like this one. These will sell via private communications, and the buyer often doesn't want it out there with a price to tell everyone what he paid for it for the next few years. Let's say I pick up a very good deal from a dealer for $10K, and I think it is a great investment in case I want to upgrade oneday. So I buy it, and 3 years from now I see this smith's blades have increased in value and I now think it's worth $20K.

In a fantasy world, I can sell it for whatever I want, and the buyer decides if it is worth it. In a fantasy world....

In reality, a buyer pulls up some old archive he has been collecting, and tells me since I only paid $10K for it, he'll give me $12K.

I may have the right to refuse the offer, but often that debate happens in public or on forums, and is just generally unpleasant.

So whilst I am not changing my policy, I do understand that sometimes there are reasons or mitigating circumstances. Maybe the case here, maybe not.

 

Brian

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Brian

 

Whether it is the case here or not, its your call, I accept that.

 

But your logic, was completely lost on me.

Market forces dictate what an item is worth, irrespective of what I paid for it! If I paid A, and its true worth is B, then B is what I will press for. I don't consider that an investment call, more a market driven fair sale.

 

Your references to the 'fantasy world', has got me startled, because that would be my policy. "Its a fair price for a unique item, if its not worth that to you, good day"

 

Knowing an item cost a buyer less than its worth, is not an opportunity for me to bully or cajole that seller, into letting me buy at a sum just over what he paid for it.

 

Regards.

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Anyone that doesn't understand that what someone paid for something has nothing to do with what they wish to sell for hasn't been around very long. All dealers sell for more than they paid or they don't stay in business. Collectors like to, but can't always. It is irrelevant.

 

Actual sales transactions are most always done privately in any case. Most everyone knows that asking price and sales price are seldom the same. Thus most items sell to unknown buyers at an unknown price, unless one or both parties make the info public.

 

Again, I see no valid reason not to stick to the requirement that all sales items advertised, presented, or discussed on the site have their prices, or a reasonably close guide, presented without exception. I see no valid reason to make exceptions as once they are made, the slope becomes slippery. Where does one draw the line?

 

Pricing information makes for more efficient markets which benefits all market players. I was under the assumption that this site was information driven for the benefit of collectors, students, and researchers. Surely the benefit to its main audience outweighs any "unpleasantness" a dealer may have to, god forbid, bear when selling a big ticket item.

 

Personally, I would rather see a policy that prohibits all dealers from posting any individual sale items. A simple post mentioning "new items at my site, check them out" would suffice. Or a requirement that all ads from dealers require a percentage of sales to the site. Or, like other sites with sales forums, dealers have to pay for a sales posting membership.

 

As has been mentioned, it is indeed Brian's site and if he wants to play favorites, make exceptions when he feels like it, or arbitrarily change the rules, or otherwise act capriciously in any manner he so chooses, that is his prerogative. I know the time and expenses involved in running a site like this as well as the value it has to sellers as a prime marketing tool. I wouldn't be giving the store away thinking that dealers are somehow doing the site a favor by posting their merchandise (which can be viewed at the dealer's site), au contraire, (for you Jean), the benefit is to the dealers and logically speaking, they should be paying for that privilege. It isn't like their merchandise will become unobtainable as it will still and always be a mouse click away.

 

My apologies to Nick for derailing his thread. Very nice sword by the way, regardless of what it costs....

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I really do not want this thread turning into a debate. As mentioned, I will decide if or when there are any exceptions. But as I said, thinking an item is worth what someone will pay for it is living in a dream world. Any idea how many times I have deleted comments about "why are you asking X when you only paid Y?"

Don't care about the logic. The reality is that it happens, and it is unpleasant. That isn't a reason to break the rules..but I understand why some people don't want prices mentioned. And a LOT of buyers feel the same, judging by how often dealers are asked to remove the price from the listing once sold. High level collectors are the MAIN ones who request that pics and prices are removed after they buy something. This is across most websites, and doesn't change even though some websites leave prices up.

Seeing people sell tsuba for $500 when it is easy to see it cost $250 from a dealer a week ago is just plain irritating. Saying that it doesn't bother anyone is just plain silly. It does. Especially when you are the buyer.

I wonder if any of you have considered that our average contributions and support that keep us running come mainly from commercially orientated members? Dealers and high level collectors keep us running. The 2-3% of other members that ever contribute financially are a tiny drop in the ocean, so to speak. There is a very small number of contributors that go out of their way to give back to the forum, and never fail when they sell something. None of them want their names mentioned here. But I am very grateful to have them. In fact, it is vital that we have them.

The interesting thing isn't the fact that someone needed to post something without a firm price. The interesting thing is the fact that some people feel the need to make a fuss about one instance. I have done it before for Darcy once too. So maybe 2 or 3 instances the past few years. Do you really think you guys have a dog in this fight? Is it such a big deal? Really?

The rule remains. Not changing it, not altering it. Sometimes I may make an exception or give a little leeway. They say rules are made to be broken.

 

Brian

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Although I always put a price on everyting I sell I understand the seller's hesitancy. If that is the case I suggest that they place a note in the for sale section directing buyers to their site.

POR means to me that, if you have to ask, you can't afford it. Some who do not ask probably could afford it. The seller looses a customer.

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Good points all but in this internet world - and it is a true world that we represent with dealers and buyers and re-sellers from all countries it has changed buy and sell conditions. The supply and demand locally is hugely different from country to country and even regionally and to say that locals support local dealers or trust them a little more than this from away is a given.

 

Many purchasers hate shipping problems and customs services and would never buy from a foreign dealer = especially if new to the game. Problem is that there are knowledgable buyers in the home town who will purchase from folks like Nick and then immediately re-list in South America or Italy at DOUBLE the price simply because he can. It is a problem but if members of the board who are dealers want to let members know what they have in stock and tease the rest of us PLUS help pay - good for them. I am sure this sword is closer to 20 G than it is to 10 but in my case I would have to re-sell and dicker but could possibly buy it and would contact him directly. Others - not a chance - its one of those cases where I am not looking at sites 24-7 as I am not in the market for any more blades but if one jumps up and I like it - who knows - I am happily married for nearly 40 years but I surely look at any thing interesting :lol: 8) 8)

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Wow, lots has been discussed since my posting. First off thank you Brian B, Stephen, Joe, Eric, Brian, & Chris for the nice comments. To Brian B, I don't have much of a lawn so no need for the mower, and if my wife wasn't such a good cook then I'd consider the trade... but she is a keeper :D

 

I'd like to apologize to Brian if this caused any problems, my intention was not to offend anyone or create any specialty treatment and so I extend my apologies to everyone involved in the debate. As a dealer I sometimes find it difficult to sell the higher price tag items for several reasons and Brian mentioned a big one, so did Brian B. I also find myself somewhat reluctant to list prices for the big ticket pieces because the internet can be a scary place, like most high valued items these pieces tend to attract the attention of not just the collectors but also the crooks, not everyone is here to appreciate these items for what they are. I'm sure many of you had some bad experiences with scam artists, it's my way of being extra careful in not drawing too much attention. If someone is real interested in a piece then I imagine they'd contact me, if it happens to be above their price range then at least I've made a new friend, thats the worst case scenario. By saying over $10k I think that filtered out a lot of buyers from inquiring. And if it was a bad guy trying to scheme something then hopefully my radar can catch it while that person is reaching out through an inquiry, its happened before and thankfully I was able to sense when that someone was being sketchy. I never reply to people with a single sentence, by nature I'm a bit of a chatterbox but I also like to take the opportunity probe people I first meet. Normally I do list all my prices, for those who see my listings you would know. Thank you Brian for your understanding and allowing this exception, I will continue to list my prices for members but occasionally I will have that higher valued treasure that I'd prefer to keep shush shush. Off topic a little here but I'd also like to this opportunity to mention that I am a passionate collector like all of you, becoming a dealer just happened and wasn't something planned, I'm not just another opportunist in it for the money... I care about these items greatly and try my best to filter who they go to and make sure the new custodians have the right knowledge and tools to properly take care of them. I don't have a lot of spare time and when I do I like to read the lovely input you all contribute in the various postings found throughout the NMB. FYI I don't mind when people reply on my posting to criticize a piece be it positive or negative, it adds as a learning experience for everyone but as long as things remain constructive.

 

To get back on track regarding the listing Markus did mention he will add it in his book, he said he's never seen one where just individual characters are differently inlayed.

Sorry for the poor translation Piers and John, its the best I could do without seeking the aid of my Japanese friends (which I haven't had a chance yet), so the door is open to any contributions of a better translation.

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Hi Nick

 

My enquiry was aimed at the non informative selling figure, not a personality issue, but more how it tied in with the first paragraph in the posting of sales rule.

But to be fair Brian had already noted and suggested a work around, which if found acceptable would have served to allay any criticism. This was not taken up, and led to the comments made.

 

I had to admit Brian,s explanation was lost on me, but your constructive post, gave a better reason for the price issue. Thanks for that.

Your original post stated what you wanted to do, and asked moderators for guidance. As your post was accepted and not vetoed, I feel you have nothing to apologise for.

 

The Sword.

 

I didn't ignore the sword, what could I say, that could not be better said, by the more informed on here? Quality will out, superb and a joy to see.

 

But I appreciate more the fact, that through you, this stunner will soon be in the public domain, and someone will have the opportunity to own it. Best of luck in the sale, regards.

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This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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