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Tanegashima ama-ooi


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Can someone with a matchlock and with an original ama-ooi, please tell me what the thickness is on theirs?

I had thought them a bit thick, around the width of the shelf it sits on. I have been crafting one for my matchlock, but just when I thought I had the dimensions about right, I discover the serpentine will hit the top of it. It needs to be about half as thick to be cleared by the serpentine...probably around 2.5mm thick, where it was 5mm thick before. This isn't as aesthetically pleasing though, since the ledge is wider below it.

These things are a lot trickier than they appear.

 

Brian

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Dear Brian,

I just measured 5 ama-ooi and they all measured 11/64 inch or as close as I can get in metric 4 mm - 4.5 mm. It is your serpentine that needs adjusting. It may be slightly bent inwards. The way to check if the serpentine is bent is to cock and release the serpentine to see if the head falls directly inline with the priming pan priming powder cavity. Send me some photographs. watsonr@mts.net

... Ron Watson

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It will need some adjustment. But it is very close. It will touch the amaooi I think. Is the serpentine basically straight, or in a slight "S" shape looking from the top. In other words, does it bend outwards slightly, and then in again to meet the flash hole?

How high are the average ama-ooi? Can someone give a rough measurement? (Height looking at the gun from the side)

Still have a way to go. Getting that horizontal ridge at the back is the next step. Don't just want to solder a strip on there. May get a thicker piece of brass and try and mill it in, in one piece.

 

Brian

amaooi1.jpg

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Dear Brian,

Your ama-ooi seems to be coming along nicely. The height of the ama-ooi varies from gun to gun. Rather than give you a definitive measurement ( impossible as they vary ), ... what you do, ... is looking at the side view with the ama-ooi in place ... the top of the ama-ooi should be approximately the same height as to be EVEN with the top of the barrel or one or two mm lower ... but not much !

 

The Serpentine should be virtually straight. You may have to remove the serpentine from the lock in order to see where it has been bent slightly awrigh.

Be very careful as applying too much pressure when straightening it could snap it ... particularly if it is iron ( which yours is not ). It takes very little bending to make a huge difference in sideways movement, ... or perhaps your serpentine is a bit too loose where it fits onto the serpentine pin. This can be adjusted by either a very fine washer, adjusting the inward outward distance of the serpentine from the lock ( although the serpentine should just slightly rest against the lock ).

 

... Ron Watson

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Thanks Ron,

With a little adjusting, I think it will be fine. But very close. Once it is finished, I will adjust the height as you suggest.

Going to make the little locking piece afterwards, that goes in from the back. And yes...I will make it like the bamboo shape that many originals have :)

That little piece is complicated and will require some milling, followed by filing to take away and machine-made marks.

And then the final aging.

This is going to require more that the usual patination techniques too. Piers mentioned some of these guns have a thick layer of soot and grime on them, from years of sitting in the house with coal fires. I thought that a bit of an exaggeration, until I examined this one. he is completely correct. The brass has a very pleasing thin layer of black that could easily be hardened soot and smoke. Not just where the fire reached, but all over. I was able to shave of a whole layer of it off the barrel too. Not only rust, and not laquer..but years of layered soot and grime. You can see it in my pic of the pan cover which is brass. Nice original pin too. And I am keeping this wonderful patina on the brass components and lockwork. So have to age the ama-ooi and new parts the same. Going to be interesting. :)

 

Brian

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Brian,

 

I aged my brass by boiling vinegar in a jar, then I suspended the brass from a wire thru a lid and dangled the brass above the hot vinegar. The fumes aged the brass, then you take an oxy-acetelane torch and make it smoke with the adjustment valve, then wave it over the brass a few times and the torch will add a decent amount of soot to make it just right.

 

Also, I used 1/8" brass for mine

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Dear Brian,

Nothing about restoring a Tanegashima is easy, ... although it may at first look easy ! You are doing fine. Yes, ... Piers is correct about the soot. Now once you have the ama-ooi made, ... the patination requires some experimentation. I like to use the pieces of scrap brass left over from my restoration to get just the right colour. I use what is called : Black Patina for Lead Solder ( available thru stained glass shops ). It works well on brass and if you screw up and want to remove it, ... a light rubbing with fine emery cloth ( crocus cloth ) or extra fine steel wool does the trick. You can try everything from dipping or applying by cloth ( wear rubber gloves ) straight to adding a cap full to 1/2 glass of warm water and then immersing the brass. Watch it continuously as it will start to darken and keep getting darker until removed. Rinse with cold water and allow to set for a few days before applying light machine oil ( 3 in 1 is very good if available ).

 

Now getting back to the serpentine - ama-ooi fit, ... the serpentine should JUST pass the ama-ooi as it falls to the pan. Go slow, ... slight bending of the serpentine has much greater impact than you might visualize. Keep us abreast of your restoration. I will be posting on the NMB tomorrow a " How to make " ... an ama-ooi hollw pin article ... for those interested in restorations.

 

... Ron Watson

 

PS. I see Justin just posted a patination process that I have never tried, but which you might want to try. No harm can be done.

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Here is the dugane I made, you can see the scrap brass that is shiny and the one I used my vinegar trick on. It aged in 30 minutes and the longer to leave, the more it happens.

 

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-B9iAc5pKPTg/UvwqwIwvxlI/AAAAAAAAD40/x_cvoWZ1B2Y/w1051-h592-no/IMG_20140212_211359943.jpg

 

 

The shiny piece is the whole piece I made, then I cut off the narrow section I needed.

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Dear Justin,

Although not a really clear photograph it would appear to be a superlative job in my opinion. I cannot claim to be an expert on inducing or copying patination. Perhaps Ford Hallam will include a chapter in the series of books he is planning. Now that would be a treat.

... Ron Watson

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Seeing Brian's shot from overhead two things strike me.

 

One is that the amaooi does appear to be a little thick. How flat is it against the barrel? Completely flush? It seems to creep towards the edge of the vent hollow, taking up too much of the edge. The serpentine head should fall just surrounding the bowl, but not necessarily touching it. The amaooi should not approach the bowl too much. Just checked my guns and found that their amaooi vary in thickness, but although the thickest one is similar to yours, there is still plenty of room between it and the edge of the bowl.

 

The second thing is that the top of the serpentine neck seems to have wandered a little too far to the left, and someone has then tried to move the head out to the right. In an ideal world, the whole neck should be straighter or bent more to the right, so that the head can be moved left a little in order to fall straight down, if that makes sense. Many serpentines do have slight play in them which can often be adjusted in the way that Ron suggests.

 

Of course, ultimately we do not want the brass serpentine whacking the iron bowl. The burning cord should be protruding enough to act as a cushion every time it falls.

 

May I just add that from those shots your gun looks to be in seriously good condition, Brian. Good clean-up on your part, I am guessing, but also good choice of working weapon. :clap: (Although I do not need to tell you this!!!) :lol:

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Dear Justin,

Although not a really clear photograph it would appear to be a superlative job in my opinion. I cannot claim to be an expert on inducing or copying patination. Perhaps Ford Hallam will include a chapter in the series of books he is planning. Now that would be a treat.

... Ron Watson

 

Ron,

 

Sorry it is a cell phone pic. Here are pics of my tools and starting materials

 

DSC_0171.JPG

 

 

 

The finished oversize version

 

DSC_0173.JPG

 

 

 

The piece I cut off

 

DSC_0172.JPG

 

 

 

DSC_0174.JPG

 

 

 

The piece before I aged the brass

 

 

DSC_0175.JPG

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Good afternoon all,

 

Justin, I showed a friend who is both a conserver and restorer this thread.

 

He was quite interested and asked me to ask if you had tried controlled patination of brass by boiling in a solution of common washing Soda.

 

Cheers

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Good afternoon all,

 

Justin, I showed a friend who is both a conserver and restorer this thread.

 

He was quite interested and asked me to ask if you had tried controlled patination of brass by boiling in a solution of common washing Soda.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

I have not, but now will try. I am making a round faced dugane for my long teppo and will give this a try. I'll post results.

 

I know with the vinegar, the brass can green if not careful, and if you apply to much heat, from the vinegar, it can pop the solder joint. I fume, buff, fume, buff, over and over to keep the green down and the brown aged look growing.

 

Justin

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  • 2 weeks later...

Justin, while following your brave attempts to make a suitable brass ring to slip over and fasten the barrel to the stock, I decided to go back to the literature to find out what the 'correct' word might be in Japanese.

 

Do/dou/doh (like in donut) 胴 means body, and Kane/gane 金 means metalwork; these together seem to be short for the proper term 台締金 Dai-shime-gane. (Dai 台 is stock)

 

Sawada Taira seems to be the most authoritative in this area, but trawling through his book I came up with no less than five different expressions. These can be explained in different ways, but the easiest way out I noticed was for him to use the imported word バンド (band) which has a multitude of convenient uses in Japanese today, including belt to hold up one's pants/slacks/trousers.

 

He uses the word Do-rin 胴輪 several times, which has a Buddhist 'ring' (pun intended, the pun works in Japanese too) to it. He often uses the word Kantai 環帯 but my electronic dictionary and Google searches fail to come up with such a meaning to this compound word.

 

In conversation you will hear people refer to it as Wakka ワッカ 輪っか which is a convenient slang word for something ring-shaped.

 

In an illustration on p. 103 of his book of the 'correct' terminology for the parts of a Seki-Ryu gun, these bands are referred to as Do-rin, and in brackets "Dai-shime-gane, made of copper".

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Hello Malcolm, yes, I am sure he has a picture in his mind, but he (or his computer) chose the wrong Kanji to express it, I am guessing. Written that way it can be a ring of fern cells in botany, or a ring around a worm's sexual organs... (?)

 

OK, thanks Malcolm, I have found it. An archaeological term for rings on old Chinese pots etc.

Google search for pics of 環帯

https://www.google.com/search?q=%E7%92% ... 5#imgdii=_

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Thanks Justin, great pic. Similar to the one Eric posted I think, showing similar details.

I am still looking for one showing the back of an ama-ooi..really want to see that ridge along the back.

I have scrapped my one. Going to get thicker material and mill it out so that the ridge is one piece. All takes time, but will work well.

 

Brian

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Dear Brian,

Please photograph as you go along for an " How to article ". Even though I prefer using all hand tools ... doesn't mean everyone does. I hopefully have a photo coming from a friend showing the reverse side of an Ama-ooi. Whether it is one like yours I do not know. There are a few varieties ESPECIALLY on how they attach. I will post photo when it arrives. I guess I could take one of mine off, ... but having fitted a couple, and having a couple nice and tight and original, ... I am hesitant.

... Ron Watson

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Brian,

 

I don't think you will find two alike. Nothing on these things were interchangeable. On one gun, the groves in the barrel were not the same as the other gun.

 

On one I had (bamboo piece), the ridge was an "L" shape that ran 3/4 of the way down it. The Ama-ooi had a light lip on the back bottom that set in the groove, and the lock piece shaped like bamboo wedged it all together just like the photo above.

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Ron,

No need to go that far, I am sure I will come right.

Most of the pics I have seen, they attach a similar way. Looking at the slots on the gun, it can be seen that many (most?) attached the same way as the pic above. Ama-ooi with a ledge behind it, and the locking piece having an intricate keyway sliding underneath it.

I have seen online, some pics showing simplified ones. But in many cases you can see that it was intended to fit the same way, but someone took a shortcut. Locking piece cut with angles to simplify the cutouts or pieces soldered on for easy of fitting. Mine is as you describe Justin.

 

I think milling the basic shape, and then finishing with hand fitting, filing and patinating will keep it looking original.

 

Brian

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I am glad, indeed, to see this topic reprized. Ron's initial discussion was informative and interesting and got me to go down and look more closely at my small collection of hinawa-ju. I don't consider myself a tanegashima collector. These are just some items that appeared and stuck. All have intact pan covers so I had never given any thought to ama-oi.

After looking at them, I tried to submit a reply to the earlier thread, but as sometimes happens, my ju-ju wasn't right or the the NMB gods were not with me. My original message did not appear.

Please let me try again.

Among my guns:

1 has a hollow brass pin of the type Ron shoed us how to replicate -

1 has a nicely form solid iron pin with a round head.

1 has a rather more simply from short, straight iron pin, and

1 has the pan attached with what looks like an old, 'square' Japanese nail which is bent at the bottom, and

1 has the pin attached with a headless square nail that is bent top and bottom in an "S"

As I said, all of these guns appeared to me in this condition. None of them look like they were modified after the left Japan. The condition they are in looks to me to have been establsihed in Japan.

If there is a take away message to all of this, it may be that in tanegashima - as in so many other areas of Japanese culture - there are standard ways of doing things, AND exceptions.

Again, thanks for an interesting and informative thread.

Peter

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Peter,

I would put it to you that most of yours without the hollow pin were replaced by "field repair" and not originally manufactured that way. The pin would likely have been something easily lost or maybe damaged, and would have been replaced with whatever was handy. In this case, I am moderately confident that your "S" shaped pin, and the plain iron one and the nail, are repairs.

The Japanese might not have any rules, but I think some things were done so commonly as to be taken for fact. Highly probable a solid pin was used sometimes, but the presence of one does not guarantee originality. Might still be a few hundred years old though.

 

Brian

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Brian,

I agree that the range of pan attachments I described certainly reflects the long history of use/adjustment/repair that these guns experienced. At the same time, I think they are not simple field expedient repair. They reflect the reality of gun usage.

I also did not wish to suggest that Japanese culture has "no rules." Obviously, the Japanese have lots of rules and regularities.

Peter

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The hollow pin would have been a refinement around the time when they were experimenting with ways to fit a shroud for firing in rainy weather. Nagashino comes to mind.

 

Certainly until then there is no reason for the hinge pins to have been hollow. From then on they would have become fashionable, in fact probably de rigueur.

 

I have an early pistol with a solid brass pin which looks lovingly handmade, unassuming and original. The top is hollowed out though to form a bowl where you might expect a dome. I can imagine that fitting an umbrella box to a long gun was just within the realms of practical, but in the case of a cavalry pistol it would surely be just too dang complicated to fit the burning match and try to open the pan inside such a box while seated on a horse. In the case of pistols my guess is that hollow pins were in reality a decorative option rather than a functional necessity.

 

As to Peter's collection above, it does sound as though most have been replaced by someone at some point unable to get the perfect pin, but needing something to hold the pan in place. Dropped at the wrong angle with the lid open, the pins may have crumpled or sheared easily. (Many guns have lost their pan completely. The easiest way not to lose a pan lid is to fit it back on with whatever is to hand.)

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