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Anyone use an eye glass?


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#1 Alex A

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 10:00 PM

I was wondering how common it is for folk to use magnification when studying nihonto. I was looking over a few blades today with an high magnification glass that i use at work, it was very interesting to see the minute martensite crystals that you would never see with the naked eye. One sword in particular, a sword i thought was nioi-deki was packed with ko-nie and ji-nie, details that had gone unnoticed.
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#2 John A Stuart

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 11:04 PM

I use a loupe almost constantly, esp. tousogu. John

#3 Uechi

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 12:32 AM

A loop works great and so does varying the light intensity and the angle of the light.
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#4 cabowen

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 12:37 AM

i thought was nioi-deki was packed with ko-nie and ji-nie, details that had gone unnoticed.


Nioi and nie are the same thing, differing only in size. If it is too small to see the individual crystals with the eye, it is nioi. Using a loop makes nioi appear to be nie...
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#5 John A Stuart

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 01:24 AM

Clouds and stars. John

#6 Uechi

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 02:13 AM

i thought was nioi-deki was packed with ko-nie and ji-nie, details that had gone unnoticed.


Nioi and nie are the same thing, differing only in size. If it is too small to see the individual crystals with the eye, it is nioi. Using a loop makes nioi appear to be nie...


Not if you realize you are looking at a magnfied image.

JDromm
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#7 Dr Fox

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 02:52 AM

I was wondering how common it is for folk to use magnification when studying nihonto. I was looking over a few blades today with an high magnification glass that i use at work, it was very interesting to see the minute martensite crystals that you would never see with the naked eye. One sword in particular, a sword i thought was nioi-deki was packed with ko-nie and ji-nie, details that had gone unnoticed.


Examination of the hamon with a high magnification device, will allow the detection of the presence of hagiri.
This can present as a hairline crack, that cannot be easily seen with the naked eye.
I start every exam of a potential purchase with this simple test,
My easy carry device is an Eschen bach magnifier, that clips on to my glasses.
Many times polishers, during their work find hagiri, and many times they say, these flaws could have been detected.
Purchasing a sword with a fatal flaw, is best avoided at the point of purchase.
Denis

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#8 Alex A

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:17 AM

Cheers for the clarification Chris, i was under the impression that nioi could not be distinguished individually, even with a magnifying glass, like a mist. I just presumed they where ko-nie as they where clearly individual crystals.

A loupe, i see they make some that attach to your glasses, as Denis mentions. That would help with the focusing, difficult to keep the hand steady with the small glass that i own.

I was sat against a glass patio door with the sun behind me, so the lighting was good.
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#9 micha

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:43 PM

i thought was nioi-deki was packed with ko-nie and ji-nie, details that had gone unnoticed.



Nioi and nie are the same thing, differing only in size. If it is too small to see the individual crystals with the eye, it is nioi. Using a loop makes nioi appear to be nie...


I think Nie and Nioi are not the same at all. Here's my opinion (it's my personal opnion so read it critical please)

Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. The iron crystal structure does have dislocations (irregularity in the crystal form). This dislocations make iron flexible. Carbon prevent the movement of the dislocation in the iron ( and makes it harder, less flexible).
When iron and carbon is hot enough, it 'melts' and becomes austentite. When austentite cools down it transforms into different structures (ferriet, martensite, cementite, bainite, .....). It's a rearrangement of the atomic structures.

Nie is pure martensite, it requires a high tempature and a fast cool down. When the cool down is fast enough, carbon can not diffuse out of the austentite. Due to the high carbon, martensite will be much harder and britlle.
When the cool down is not fast enough, carbon will diffuse and the austentite will becomes ferrite with cementite inclusions (softer, more flexible).
Martensite is 'lens shaped' and the reflection of light will be less ('black').

The amount of carbon is important, the temperature is important, the cooldown is important, the dislocations are important, the amount of oxigen during the heating is important, ..... to form nie (martensite).
If some of the 'needs/conditions' are not present, the atomic rearrangement will find another arrangement ..........

-austentite -->much carbon (only exist at high temperature + 723°C, during the forging), the higher the temperature the higher the amount of carbon it can take (max 2% at 1147°C)

when austentite cool down the atomic structures rearrange into -->
-ferrite --> very low amount of carbon
-pearlite --> when the heating temperature is around 727°C and the carbon 0,8%, austentite can transform to pearlite, this is a lamellar structure of ferrite and cementite. It's a very strong structure.
-bainite -->is a similar structure than pearlite BUT the lamellae are much smaller than the wavelenght of light !! Therefore it lacks the pearlescent appearrance of pearlite ( is this utsuri ? )
-.......

-cementite --> carbon that has left the austentite, it's an intermetallic compound that is hard and brittle like martensite BUT it's NOT the same

When swords are made all these structures can emerge depending on (see above)


Is Nie the same as Nioi --> I don't think so, it's not that easy, Nioi might include very small martensite but that's not enough to make it Nioi. It's important in what kind of crystal structure the particles are 'swimming' to make it nioi, utsuri, yubashiri, yo or whatever.
Each different crystal form will reflect the light different and evry different kind of light (sun, artificial light, ...) will show a different reflection of the crystal structure.




Micha
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#10 runagmc

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:51 PM

My understanding is also that nioi and nie are characterized by collectors by the visible size of the "particle". I'm sure the "frozen" crystal structures have endless variablity depending on many factors, as Micha has explained... but none of that is easily determinable by looking at a hamon with the naked eye (for most anyway). It's hard enough just to get to the point where you can be comfortable categorizing what you see by size of particles. Nioi and nie are simplified terms it seems... or, I also like clouds and stars... :D
Adam L.

#11 cabowen

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:00 PM

Nioi and nie are both martensite. They only difference is their physical size. If you search the Japanese literature you will find this specified in nearly every metallurgical examination.

#12 O-Yumi

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:36 PM

While we're on the topic of lenses, does anyone know anything about an "art magnifier" to view swords at a museum, etc.? Sort of like a close range monocular? John

#13 b.hennick

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 04:21 PM

I frequently use a magnifier that is surrounded by LED so the subject is well lit. In muesums the lighting is usually the problem rather than the magnification. I found at the MET exhibit of wonderful swords that the light was indispensible. I usually walk around with two magnifiers in my pocket a 10X and a 30X without lights. I also carry a LED light in my pockjet. My jacket usually has a high power LEd light - always be prepared.
Regards,
Barry Hennick

#14 Alex A

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 10:32 PM

30x with an LED, 60x maybe?, might look into buying a new one.

John, "art magnifier", as you say, maybe similar to a close range monocular, posh term maybe :dunno:.
Alex.

#15 6pakki

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 11:14 AM

I have a pair of eye glass magnifiers, 5x, 10x, 30x ...to 60x.

They seem to work nicely with small details but with swords, I have a concerns to put the blade so close to my face.

For two reasons.

Pro primo, I might damage the blade by saliva and moisture from my breath and pro secundo, I might damage my face cause one has to keep the blade an inch from ones eyes...

Just my thoughts of the subject.

I just might have to order one "Sherlock Holmes" type glass just to be on safe side.

 

Juha


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#16 Dr Fox

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 11:50 AM

http://www.eschenbac...-magnifiers.htm

 

Served me well for many years. Note if you don't wear prescription specs, then just use frames without lenses in.

 

Not cheap! But then nothing worthwhile in our hobby is.


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#17 Alex A

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:36 AM

Hi Juha, I agree about breathing on swords, try to avoid, wipe with a clean cloth afterwards.

 

Wonder how we would go on with one of these, just a thought, think some folk use them.

https://www.heamar.c...CFdUV0wodwCwDTw


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#18 Dr Fox

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 10:33 AM

 

Pro primo, I might damage the blade by saliva and moisture from my breath and pro secundo, I might damage my face cause one has to keep the blade an inch from ones eyes...

 

Juha

 

Grip a handkerchief lightly between closed teeth, breathe through your nose.


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#19 rkg

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:14 PM

Hi,

 

I hate it when I come late to the party...

 

I have a number of magnifying glasses, and when that ain't enough I pull out the microscope (its amazing what you can discern with a decent stereo one - stuff just leaps out at you in a way you can't see in a 2-D image, but I digress) - I got lucky enough to find a unit with a 2.5X objective and a nifty stage that slides/rotates - cool for getting up close and personal with tosogu :-)

Another cool thing are these:

http://www.doneganop...ducts/optivisor

 

Its good because you then can have both hands free.

 

Yet another option that I haven't tried (because they cost a small fortune) are those custom magnifying glasses that surgeons/dentists, etc use as they will tweak magnification, focal distance, etc to what you want so you can effectively be several feet away and its both magnified and in focus...

for swords I actually normally just photograph them for close-up study like you're suggesting - I'm not a big fan of getting close enough to spit on 'em either...

For looking at stuff in display cases, the Japanese do use monoculars - Wasn't there a thread on here in the distant past about this? you need one that can close-focus, which isn't cheep (and actually, it might be better to re-survey as high end optics just keep getting better and better...).  I have some small soviet monocular for this, but I"m not even sure where it is now....

 

I normally carry a light too - the ability to have both a point source as well as a "flood" and variable power (from dim to small sun mode) is good - I normally just use a higher end headlamp (gives you a plethora of lighting modes (point, multiple LEDs, lots of power adjustment, etc) like this, though I think they've discontinued these:

https://www.rei.com/...-storm-headlamp

 

I really wish when museums display tosogu they would "get" that pretty much everybody who is interested ends up having to use a light/some kind of magnifier to look at the pieces (or at the very least end up with their nose pressed to the glass trying to make out details), and either 1) make it easy to get close to the piece (that earlier post with tsuba held in a matrix was brilliant) and/or 2) provide magnification/different lighting modes either in real time or with a projector/screen next to the pieces, but that's just me.

rkg

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#20 seattle1

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 10:35 PM

Hello:

 I wonder if the "gain" from magnification, particularly high magnification might not be net negative in the sense that one sees things outside the common and classic conventions for  an examination and  enjoyment of a sword? I wonder what the gain might be, except perhaps in seeing if the tiny ha-giri is real, though there are other ways to tell that. When Tanobe sensei gave his extended lecture at the Florida Token Kai a few years ago he stressed not using a glass greater than 3x!

 Arnold F.


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#21 John A Stuart

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:13 PM

The glasses I use for reading are 3x. In fact to read these posts use them. Necessary these days. John



#22 seattle1

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:23 PM

Hello:

 I think we need an optometrist! Wouldn't the Tanobe recommendation be that if 3x is required to bring you to 20:20 or general vision capability, the presumptive starting point, then no more than an additional 3x!?

 Arnold F.



#23 Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:36 PM

A jeweler monocular magnifier with the usual surgical mask are light and use very few space into your pokets...


Please forgive my english
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#24 John A Stuart

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:56 PM

I have 25/25 vision. It is close-up that needs magnification, distance is fine. For swords my reading glasses are enough to really be satisfied. For detailed metal craft, my 10x loupe is good. John



#25 Ken-Hawaii

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:55 AM

Actually, if you know where to look, magnifiers aren't all that expensive. Check out http://www.banggood....-p-1130295.html& try not to laugh at their 'command' of English.

 

I've dealt with that company for many years, with no problems. They have a lot more magnifiers, too.

 

Ken

 






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