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Bob Benson did not polish that sword.

Bob Benson explained to me that the AKihiro is a difficult sword to polish. The sword is hitatsura and so there is an irregular mixture of hard and soft steel. If special care is not taken to keep the stone level with the blade you get more of the soft steel removed and hence the dips. I have no interest in identifying the polisher.

 

Thank you Barry. Knowing who it wasn't is almost as helpful as knowing who it was.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

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I had a good time at the show. Picked up a couple of nice tsuba at good prices and also a nice kogai as well as a few other things. Seemed to be more people than last year and the auction, although small was a lot of fun. Good auctioneer. Lots of interesting material displayed and moved.

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All:

 

Perhaps we could split this Akihiro topic from the Tampa 2014 event?

 

On the Akihiro, there may be more to the story than meets the eye. I had a chance to study the blade at the show. I didn’t like the polish at all. I will say that I have known the polisher personally since 1996 while living in Japan. He underwent a 10 year apprenticeship with a mukansa polisher. I have handled over 20 blades polished by him and his usual standard is high. After talking with the agent representing the blade I learned some further details. The story was that the owner got afraid that the Japanese government was going to confiscate the blade due to its previous Juyo Bunkazai status and he ordered its IMMEDIATE return to the US. My guess is that the polisher was at an intermediate stage in the process when this order came out and didn’t have time to finish it properly. The exchanges were heated and the demand was met. The blade was returned with a mediocre polish but there were extenuating circumstances.

 

The current owner is not a sword person but I am sure that when the sword meets it next owner it will see a proper restoration.

 

Robert

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Didn't see the Akihiro.

I spoke to one of the other attendees today and guess I agree with him that the show was the most fun one either of us had been to in a while.

 

Why? Hard to say why. I guess it was a confluence of events. Quite a number of people showed up without being snowed out as happened the former year. I am sorry to those like Prof. Bleed who were snowed out. Perhaps it was recovery from the Great Recession, but the mood was lighter, the conversations many, and cash changing hands at fair prices for fair items. Lots of people brought and shared good items for display. The social time was rampant. Had a few meals with people I often correspond with, but rarely see. Hung out a bit after hours with one member that I still owe a few drinks or otherwise treat him.

 

The atmosphere was relaxed. The ko-kinko lecture had a perfect cross-section of examples, including a few stunners. Most everyone sold, traded, and bought something of interest for themselves.

Being more of a fittings collector, I was surprised by the volume of swords changing hands. While Ando-san was there doing business, it was other individuals doing a volume business. Two fellows having bought over 100 swords together and another having bought 19. In conversation, they expressed that the USA remains the best bargain place to buy swords and sell them to international clients.

 

When a newbie, I didn't like the idea that everyone hid the good stuff behind the tables. Unfortunately, this is still true and I am guilty of it to a degree. But people like Mr. Clark were willing to put quite a number of nice pieces out in the open. Also, from another collector, how often do you see a Sadamune openly on display complete with daimyo plaything koshirae?

Both commercially and socially, the show had a lot more velocity than in prior years.

 

Kudos to the collector that picked up the really interesting 'Enju' with koshirae. Elegant sword and I don't think any of us would be surprised if further papers gave a different opinion. Quite the kantei challenge.

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Hi Everyone,

 

Didn't see the Akihiro but over heard about it. Given the fact I had a issue with walking from table to table because of a issue with my Achilles tendon on my left leg I did my best show ever in terms of education, buying, and selling/trading. The show really started to turn around after I had that Ultimate Margarita at dinner on Saturday. :badgrin:

 

P.S. Was also able to meet many old friends and some new friends as well at the show. :D

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Hi Everyone,

 

Didn't see the Akihiro but over heard about it. Given the fact I had a issue with walking from table to table because of a issue with my Achilles tendon on my left leg I did my best show ever in terms of education, buying, and selling/trading. The show really started to turn around after I had that Ultimate Margarita at dinner on Saturday. :badgrin:

 

P.S. Was also able to meet many old friends and some new friends as well at the show. :D

 

Just goes to show you that a good libation can do wonders for your attitude and constitution, Dave. :D (BTW , that is my favorite libation)

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Interesting segment on the Soshu Akihiro;

 

Yet, one that needs further study and explanation to all; with many questions to be asked and answered.

 

Was the blade in such bad shape that the polisher, who has been referred to as professionally and traditionally trained, only capable to bring it to the described condition as wavy and over cast, with too much and an irregular, kesho dressing.

 

This would be an excellent opportunity to have the polisher describe what was involved in it's restoration.

 

When was the polish done, and at what point of the career was the polisher at. We all know that time and experience, hones and develops talent

to it's fullest.

 

Why has the name of this polisher not been reveled, as indicated that would be done, so as to let all know and understand who it is; as we all know and have experiences with this professionals, or will in the future.

 

For the huge expense of polishes by many in the years to come, any and all ranges of knowledge in our choice is of most importance.

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Hello-

 

Wow! What a time! I would like to throw in a few things here regarding the show and shinsa...

 

Regarding the show, I can't say too much as I was only able to spend about 45 minutes over the course of the show in the actual showroom. What I saw and heard is in agreement with what others have said- very lively atmosphere with a real hussle and bussle I have not seen in a long time. I know there was a constant deal flow behind the scenes that made for a very active subtext. The Akihiro was surely the big buzz (more later on that). I really didn't hear a bad thing spoken about the show from any corner. I think the promoter, Bill Green, did a great job and deserves a big thank you.

 

As for the shinsa, judging by the feedback I have heard, both first and second hand, it seems to have been roundly applauded. I found out very lately that Miyano sensei, the head of the NTHK-NPO, would not be able to make the trip due to illness. This was a disappointment but knowing that he was committed to review all of the photos and data taken, as well as the expertise of the entire team, I was confident that things would go well. With any shinsa, there are always going to be people disappointed with the results who complain but I do not know if I was simply too busy to notice or what but I heard less of this than at any other shinsa. All in all, it went very smoothly. More on this in a separate post.

 

The hotel staff bent over backwards time and again to meet our rather strange requests (old style light bulbs please...). They deserve a big thanks as well.

 

All in all, I was simply too busy to enjoy a lot of what was available but do think it was possibly the best show, by any measure, that I have seen in a very long time.

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Hello:

The show was excellent and the shinsa seemed to be very well organized and conscientiously conducted. Congratulations to Bill Green and Chris Bowen. There was a good mix of the old guard, well informed dealers and some very nice things to be seen.

The Akihiro was seen by quite a few folks and there has been much discussion of it, the quality of the polish and who might have polished it. I suspect the whole story has more layers than first meets the eye. I have seen some nice work done by the polisher, and do wonder what state the blade was in after spending 65 years or so in the hands of the former GI owner, though I do agree that the present state can probably be improved substantially.

The blade has been referred to as a Juyo Bunkasai, which it is not. The sword received a Juyo Bijutsuhin designation on Sept. 24, 1941. The Juyo Bunkasai law, Bunkasai-hogo-ho, was initiated in 1950, at which time existing JBi designations were cancelled, and as I understand it they could be requalified for the new Juyo Bunkasai designation if worthy. I believe the pre-war rating system may have co-mingled issues such as the quality of the object, and at least sometimes with the clout of the owner. The source of the misinformation of the Akihiro's status traces to a site: www.sydneytokenkai.com, which calls it Juyo Bunkasai in innocent error. That is a site worth checking as it lists quite a number of missing blades. Currently items with the old Juyo Bijutsuhin designation are not allowed to transferred by sale to new owners outside of Japan if they are in Japan, and the same for Juyo Bunkasai and National Treasures, so that while disestablished from its prior standing, the Juyo Bijutsuhin blades are in a grey area, though undoubtedly highly desirable nonetheless.

Arnold F.

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Having just spent a bundle at home before the show, I went down primarily for the shinsa and to look around the show, visit with old friends and to enjoy a few beers poolside, soaking up some sunshine! I was impressed with how busy the show was. Tables were filled and there was a "buzz" in the air. People were having fun, buying and selling. I missed handling the Akihiro :cry: but that was my own fault. Chris and his crew did a wonderful job keeping the shinsa on track and accommodating people. While it was disappointing that Miyano sensei could not make the trip, the shinsa team held to expectations for the NTHK(NPO). (Six passes out of seven submissions, I was quite pleased!)

 

There was also some fun afterhours sessions in the lounge. Jim Gilbert and I sat at the bar together and soon, some fittings came out for study. A few others joined in and soon, it was like "old times" as five or six of us enjoyed each other's tosogu items. The NBTHK/American exhibit was super, being a fancier of early tosogu. Jim and Bob Benson did their usual excellent job commenting on what was laid out for in-hand study. Regrets? Well, maybe that Jim was able to buy a couple wonderful tsuba and I missed them. ;)

Ron STL

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Currently items with the old Juyo Bijutsuhin designation are not allowed to transferred by sale to new owners outside of Japan if they are in Japan, and the same for Juyo Bunkasai and National Treasures, so that while disestablished from its prior standing, the Juyo Bijutsuhin blades are in a grey area, though undoubtedly highly desirable nonetheless.
Actually Jûyô Bunkazai and Kokuhô can be legally owned by people outside Japan, the items are just not allowed to leave Japan - one needs a custodian.

 

Jûyô Bijutsuhin can be exported from Japan, but loose their designation in that case (although exceptions are occasionally made).

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Guido is correct, also Juyo bijutsuhin (Jubi) without the original certificate have a lower value as well. there are also blades that have been determined as possible Gimei that have the Juyo Bijutsu designation by some strong authorities, but they still have the designation and most have a provonance.

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There is a story about how Homma sensei rushed over to Kasama Shigetsugu's home when he heard the news that he died to obtain Kasama's records. It was often thought that there were more than a few JuBi blades that were in fact Kasama's work, or retempered by him. It would have been a big embarrassment if the records of these were released. At least that is the story I heard, from several different sources....Knowing Kasama's talent and the circles he traveled, I find it entirely believable.

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The main topic of this Tampa report is the resurrection of the Akihiro Wakizashi. Was it there for exposition only or for sale?...and a lot of speculations and explanations on the why and for which reason the outcome of its failed polish...and the claim after the togishi‘s identity.

 

Basically a self-respecting togishi would never deliver a frouzy polish even under „special“ circumstances as said. Confiscation...if at all could it be confiscated in agreement with Japanese laws? The most interesting question is who knew that it is the true Akihiro bijutsuhin.... by logic it‘s the owner who sent it in reportedly bad condition to the polisher in Japan and hastily ordered it back.

 

Robert: I have handled over 20 blades polished by him and his usual standard is high. He underwent a 10 year apprenticeship with a mukansa polisher.

 

Arnold F.: I have seen nice work by the polisher....

 

Both know who the polisher is and testify the quality of his works.

 

As said, obscure circumstances together with bad condition of the blade have resulted in a crappy polish.

 

But the polisher should have the opportunity to explain the story.

 

If I‘m not wrong it‘s the togishi who learned under the tutelage of Sensei Naoji Karita in Tokyo.

 

Eric

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Yes, it is. But I really would prefer that this doesn't become a "name and shame" thread after careful deliberation.

This isn't an amateur or self taught polisher, and he has done his training in Japan. For that reason, I think we need to focus less on the polish (as this has been amply covered now) and go back to the Tampa show.

If anyone really has to know who the togishi is, a pm to any one of the posters in this thread would solve that question. But enough of that for now. The show seems to have been a great success, and no doubt a future owner of the sword will have it done again.

I am fascinated by what seems to be a total non-sword guy picking up this sword from a pawn shop? :freak:

Who said life is fair! :lol:

 

Brian

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The main topic of this Tampa report is the resurrection of the Akihiro Wakizashi. Was it there for exposition only or for sale?...and a lot of speculations and explanations on the why and for which reason the outcome of its failed polish...and the claim after the togishi‘s identity.

 

Basically a self-respecting togishi would never deliver a frouzy polish even under „special“ circumstances as said. Confiscation...if at all could it be confiscated in agreement with Japanese laws? The most interesting question is who knew that it is the true Akihiro bijutsuhin.... by logic it‘s the owner who sent it in reportedly bad condition to the polisher in Japan and hastily ordered it back.

 

Robert: I have handled over 20 blades polished by him and his usual standard is high. He underwent a 10 year apprenticeship with a mukansa polisher.

 

Arnold F.: I have seen nice work by the polisher....

 

Both know who the polisher is and testify the quality of his works.

 

As said, obscure circumstances together with bad condition of the blade have resulted in a crappy polish.

 

But the polisher should have the opportunity to explain the story.

 

If I‘m not wrong it‘s the togishi who learned under the tutelage of Sensei Naoji Karita in Tokyo.

 

Eric

 

 

Let me fill in some of the blanks as I was contacted several months ago by a friend of the owner who told me the complete story, as well as transported the blade to the show.

 

The blade was purchased for $700 at a pawn shop by a guy with some interest in things sharp but no real knowledge of Japanese swords. His friend, being a collector, realized it was something special. They sent it to Japan for polish. As noted, the polisher is a fully trained togishi with maybe 40 years in the craft.

 

The owner thought that there was some foot dragging in getting the blade back, and whether this is the case or just the usual delays, there was some (perceived?) issue. It was returned, with polish and new shirasaya. The old saya had a sayagaki which was removed and redone by the polisher. No info on the state of the original or why it was redone.

 

I received a call asking about the possibility of shinsa and whether or not there would be any issues in having the sword returned. Obviously, there would be no issues and suggested submitting it for authentication purposes.

 

It was shopped around the show on the owner's behalf. There was a trail of blood, sweat and tears throughout the showroom. One Japanese dealer made a rather low offer, then made a much higher offer. This spooked the seller and as far as I know, it left the show unsold. Conversation with the owner's friend seemed to indicate that the owner was now spooked by all the attention and would probably not sell at any price out of fear of being taken. Eventually, once interest dies down, it will probably be sold.

 

The sword passed shinsa and was greatly admired by the shinsa team. They asked if they could use it in their write up of the event for their bimonthly journal, Token to Rekishi. I can perhaps upload the article when it appears.

 

As for the polish, I wouldn't say it ruined the sword, or that it was "terrible". Hitatsura blades are very difficult to polish. It was a serviceable job, all considered, in my opinion. Certainly it could have been better, but it could have also been much worse.

 

It is regardless a beautiful sword that can rightly be called a treasure. I feel privileged to have been able to see it.

 

Hopefully this will set the record straight(er).

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I thought the show was well-attended and I personally never got a break in the action. Was constantly looking and learning from quality pieces, wheeling and dealing, and mingling with other collectors. It looked like there was plenty of movement of blades from tables.

 

Big thanks to Bill Green for putting on the show. Big thanks to Chris Bowen and team for putting on a great shinsa. :clap:

 

I hope the owner of the Akihiro eventually buys some books and learns a little about the subject.

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The sword passed shinsa and was greatly admired by the shinsa team. They asked if they could use it in their write up of the event for their bimonthly journal, Token to Rekishi. I can perhaps upload the article when it appears.

 

As for the polish, I wouldn't say it ruined the sword, or that it was "terrible". Hitatsura blades are very difficult to polish. It was a serviceable job, all considered, in my opinion. Certainly it could have been better, but it could have also been much worse.

 

It is regardless a beautiful sword that can rightly be called a treasure. I feel privileged to have been able to see it.

 

Chris, thanks for explaining the background of what has happened. This relativises some other harsh opinions. Criticism is easily given and it‘s questionable if collectors have enough knowledge to evaluate the work of a togishi with maybe 40 years experience. I suppose he knew the importance of the sword and made the appropriate polish.

 

However the enthusiasm of the shinsa team, the experts, says it all.

 

Eric

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There were originally 2 large offers already made for the Akihiro pre show. One of the offers was made last year by the recently deceased dealer Mr. Pepin.1 Japanese dealer that was also contacted prior to the show came to see and offer at the show as well. The owner has no idea of the sword market and will take time before he realizes that it is not worth a million dollars. We also made a large offer, but not as much as for the Tokuju Akihiro that popped up a few years ago. That blade was longer and in better condition as this Jubi unfortunately has some openings that need repair by a professional in Japan. The Tokuju also had a date, the Jubi does not. It was also sad to learn that the original sayagaki was removed and that the Juyo Bijutsuhin certificate was missing. This both hurts the monetary and historical value of the blade. It was once the property of the Shimazu family. I do hope that one day that this blade will be restored to a better state, and work its way back to Japan.

Mike

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This relativises some other harsh opinions. Criticism is easily given and it‘s questionable if collectors have enough knowledge to evaluate the work of a togishi with maybe 40 years experience. I suppose he knew the importance of the sword and made the appropriate polish.

However the enthusiasm of the shinsa team, the experts, says it all.

Sorry Eric, but no. From everything that has been sent and mentioned to me, there is no doubt the polish was bad. The redoing of the sayagaki was worse. No excuses can make up for that. We have knowledgeable collectors here who have testified to the polish, and they agree it was not good. Mitigating circumstances..maybe...at best. But no denying what everyone agrees on.

I have held back the name because it is now known to anyone who wants it. I shy away from huge controversy as I need less stress, not more. But I also won't bury my head in the sand. We can always listen to reasons why it happened, but there are not going to be good explanations that "this was an appropriate polish" and certainly not at $7000 for the whole job.

 

Brian

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Ah, nothing more exciting than a little witch-hunt!

From everything that has been sent and mentioned to me, there is no doubt the polish was bad.
Have you seen the blade in hand, Brian? And if that would be the case, can you properly judge a polish? If Mike, and offline someone else I know I can trust, tells me that the polish wasn't that bad, that's good enough for me. I don't know Chris personally, but assume that he knows what he's talking about when it comes to polishes, and he agrees, too. Btw, what has the price of the polish have to do with anything?

I suggest that everybody who hasn't seen the blade in hand - including myself - should take a back-seat in this discussion.

The redoing of the sayagaki was worse.
Couldn't agree more, even without having seen the Sayagaki, there are no attenuating circumstances for this - it's actually kind of twilight zone'ish, and I'm being kind here.
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Guido,

In this thread alone, there are 4 collectors who are by no means novices saying the polish was bad. And more via pm. Even Mike says he hope it finds its way back to Japan oneday to be redone.

Sorry..but via pm I get condemnation that I am not naming the polisher, and getting condemnation that I am even discussing this and criticism that the polisher is being identified. I'm getting it from all sides. We condemn any polisher that isn't traditionally trained, but when one that is, does something not up to scratch, we must ignore it?

I could delete this whole thread, and save myself the headache. Or leave it up to you guys whether you want the whole topic of polishing excluded from the forum. Because I cannot formulate a policy if people bounce around based on who the subject is.

Is it ok if this was all done by Mr X or Mr Y? Is Mr Z fair game?

If someone wants to send me a private list of which polishers are above reproach, which are professionals that sometimes use students, which are professionals that are to be avoided, which are amateurs to avoid, which are amateurs that do an ok job, and which are scammers..then my life will be easier. Care to tackle that anyone?

The politics in this hobby, and the factions and "sides" are truly amazing and frankly disgusting at times. And that's not a comment about this incident particularly, but something I see in general.

 

Brian

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The politics in this hobby, and the factions and "sides" are truly amazing and frankly disgusting at times.
Although I can sign that sentence without reservation, you can't claim to try being neutral when in fact you condemn his work without having seen it, and allowed to have him named (or rather his teacher, but anyone with a single working brain cell left knows who he is by now). You have allowed polishing jobs and the people who did them being named and discussed in the past, and I think that's how it should be. You know me, I prefer calling a spade a spade, so let's stop beating around the bush, and name the polisher (for those who didn't bother to add 1 + 1 so far): Jon Bowhay.

 

It's no secret that we used to be friends, until his ideas and behavior became more and more outlandish. Long story short: we haven't exchanged a single word in more than ten years. I'm just mentioning this to avoid the possible misunderstanding that I might stick up for him out of misguided loyalty. But may that all as it be, I've probably seen more of his work than anybody else, except for his teacher. I have a pretty good idea of what he's good at, and also the type of sword I wouldn't have him polished. Especially Hitatsura blades need a Togishi trained in this special field – as has been mentioned already – and I have seen poor jobs done on them even by Mukansa polishers.

 

This is not the first case in which he was chosen as a polisher only because he can communicate in English. I have personally witnessed another case (involving Jon) of the owner getting cold feet, because he thought his sword would be confiscated by the Japanese government. You can't talk any sense into them once the paranoia gets a hold. Jon should have simply send the blade back, only charging for the work already done, but he tends to see himself on a mission every now and then.

 

It's not only "buyers beware", but also "polishing customers beware". BMW technicians are highly trained professionals, but you don't let them service your Maybach. Different cars, different methods. Both, however, will do a decent job on a Yugo. Along these lines, it really doesn't matter much who polishes your Bungo blade, as long as it's a traditionally trained Togishi. But it's no incident that people who have a blade polished for Jūyō or Tokubetsu Jūyō Shinsa consult the NBTHK beforehand in regard to which polisher they recommend for that particular job.

 

In an ideal world, Jon would have refused to polish the Akihiro, recommending another polisher. But he has to make a living (don't we all?). That's basically what people can rightfully blame him for. No, he probably didn't do a stellar polish on the Akihiro, but he also never would ruin it. The Sayagaki thing is so crazily Jon that I don't dare going into it.

 

There's also another angle to this matter that I have experienced a couple of times: group momentum. Someone whom you trust calls it a bad polishing job, and soon everybody does. And to appear being in the loop, the polish gets worse with everyone you talk to. I'm not saying that Grey or Barry or anybody else who thinks that the polish is not up to par is wrong, but those things tend to get blown out of proportion.

 

In conclusion: know your stuff. Know your stuff well. Know your stuff well enough to be in a position to choose an appropriate polisher.

If someone wants to send me a private list of which polishers are above reproach, which are professionals that sometimes use students, which are professionals that are to be avoided, which are amateurs to avoid, which are amateurs that do an ok job, and which are scammers..then my life will be easier. Care to tackle that anyone?
I'm afraid your life will remain as complicated as it used to be.
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The redoing of the sayagaki was worse.

FWIW, I inspected the Akihiro in hand for several minutes and had a discussion with the owner's representative about it. The representative stated that the polisher added his own sayagaki on the original shirasaya, but that there was no original sayagaki removed on that shirasaya. We went over this point a few times to make sure we understood exactly the original shirasaya. There were two highly knowledgeable collectors beside me when we had this conversation with the representative. I know this conflicts with the versions from others here, and I do not know what the original shirasaya looked like, but it may be worth considering since the point is being used to further flame the polisher. There was no disagreement though that the polisher added a sayagaki to the original shirasaya.

 

The owner has no idea of the sword market and will take time before he realizes that it is not worth a million dollars.
You can't talk any sense into them once the paranoia gets a hold.
In conclusion: know your stuff. Know your stuff well. Know your stuff well enough to be in a position to choose an appropriate polisher.

Isn't the real travesty that an unknowledgeable owner came into possession of both the item and the knowledge? I think someone should have given him a book and said "read this" before we talk about your sword.

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I don't think the issue needs to be as difficult as you make it out to be Brian.

 

First and foremost, consistency and uniformity in how you apply whatever rule you decide on regarding any and all discussion on polishers/polishing is paramount. When you say the policy is not to promote or encourage amateurs, which I wholeheartedly agree with, don't make exceptions for friends. When I have criticized amateur polishers, it is all about the swords, not politics, friendship, or anything personal. I have tried to make it clear that it isn't personal. For those that take it that way, it can not be helped.

 

So, as a start, I would not allow the promotion or encouragement of ANY amateurs. People that claim they do a good job simply do not know what they are talking about. Period. End of story.

 

I would allow discussion of any professional's work. Good, bad, or otherwise. Why not? We have web sites discussing the work of other professionals, rating them, reviewing them, etc. Why should it be any different?

 

The readers of such critiques need to keep in mind the knowledge and experience of the reviewer, as always. I know from personal experience that many many many "long time", "experienced", "hardly novice" collectors truly are still learning when it comes to judging the quality of a polish.

 

How many blades has the average collector sent to a professional in Japan? Having handled hundreds of polishes and knowing personally dozens of smiths and polishers, I have had quite a bit of experience in this area over the last 25 years. I know from this experience that the odds of a professional polisher in Japan with 40 years experience "ruining" a blade or doing a "terrible" job are nil. Echoing Guido's observation, there have been several people here who have commented on the Akihiro polish whom I think it is quite safe to say know a lot about polishes and who have said quite plainly that this polish wasn't as bad as some have maintained (though it certainly could have been better). I am willing to bet that if you compare the experience level between the two groups you will notice a trend that should add some clarity to the issue. I think it is interesting to note that not one person on the shinsa team made any comment whatsoever about the polish on the blade, which I believe they surely would have had it in fact been "terrible".

 

So, in my opinion, two simple rules: 1) no promoting or recommending of ANY amateur, friend or otherwise and 2) free discussion of the merits or demerits of any professional work.

 

After all, Isn't the primary purpose of this board education so as to properly preserve these art works? Those that would let petty politics corrupt this forum should be shown the door.

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