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Kiyomaro tanto


Bob M.

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Kiyomaro tanto up for sale on Aoi Art.

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/sale/07228.html

 

A snip at $94,500.00 ?

 

I knew his work was sought after but not the apparent value of it.

 

Still it just goes to show that the combination of a genius and a dissolute lifestyle are very attractive to a lot of collectors.

 

I wonder if a collector in the 1840's turned up at his forge and said 'That's a fantastic blade you've made for me - let's have a drink to celebrate ......'

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For that price, you'd think we'd get at least Juyo, or even Juyo Tokubetsu! I guess some people have more money than selectivity.

 

Not always. Sometimes average to good smiths with Juyo dont command the same price as big name smith with lower paper. Some says the level of paper is suppose to reflect the standard of workmanship and state of preservation for that particular smith not one smith from another. The whole paper debate is not all that clear.

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w.y. is right...

 

Papers have a relative factor as well as an absolute factor in the desirability.

 

A flawless signed Sukehiro with fine koshirae will always be expensive and desirable, as would a Kanemoto or Tadayoshi, though the blade may not qualify for Juyo.

 

The above swords would be representative of desires for the majority of collectors.

 

Another piece may be Juyo because it is a rare example, and may appeal more to someone who is a scholar than someone who is admiring the beauty of a particular sword... or the beauty may be more of a subjective nature. Someone may enjoy the rustic nature of certain blades, or details in the construction which are unusual that may be lost on someone who is more impressed by the bright and shiny (like me heh).

 

So the price of that Juyo may be much lower in the market (to the pleasure of the scholar in question).

 

The Ryumon Nobuyoshi on my site:

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/ryumon-nobuyoshi/

 

Is a very impressive piece with gorgeous koshirae, and when I sold it it was not yet Juyo but looked like it would easily pass. The owner received a lot of pressure from his friends to not buy the sword because it was "only Tokubetsu Hozon / too expensive for Tokubetsu Hozon."

 

After getting Juyo it is the same sword. Juyo though confirms things that are speculative when we're all kind of stumbling around in the dark. You can see a blade and think it is fantastic but you're never sure of yourself... getting that sayagaki that raves about the blade and compliments in the zufu confirms that yes, you were right about it.

 

Papers have to be looked at as confirmation of what you're observing rather than the deciding factor. If the confirmation is not there, it is not a denial, you may still be entirely right in valuing a blade highly.

 

In this case, an important and highly rated smith from the middle Kamakura period with somewhere between 10 and 20 extant works, a gorgeous example of his craftsmanship, from a prestigious collection, with great koshirae (antique solid gold two piece habaki!)... my opinion is that you have to be really silly to look past all of that, and focus on the Tokubetsu Hozon papers as the salient point.

 

Of course with it passing Juyo now the question becomes Tokubetsu Juyo haha.

 

I'll draw on my favorite example of the most pricey sword ever shown to me for sale ($500,000), everyone had a laugh at the papers ("only Hozon"). Ubu, signed, flawless Hisakuni. Oh to be Bill Gates.

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As a side issue to the points raised re. papers status , would anybody like to hazard a guess as to the level of points/paper that the Kiyomaro would get from the NTHK ?

We always seem to be discussing NBTHK levels as a reference but the irony is that for collectors in the States and Europe , we are more likely to come across one of the NTHK shinsas usually in conjunction with an arms fair or show.

Am I right in thinking that NTHK shinsas outside Japan will only award points to a certain level ?

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http://www.nihonto.ca/ratings.html

 

Darcy has a good explanation on the different shinsa organizations, etc. at the above link.

NTHK Yushusaku and Sai Yushusaku have to be determined in Japan at the headquarters so if attribution is made outside of Japan it will be noted to that effect. You will then have the option of sending it to Japan for shinsa.

As for this piece who knows? They tend to be very conservative and strict and to venture a guess would be improper.

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Am I right in thinking that NTHK shinsas outside Japan will only award points to a certain level ?

 

Hi Bob, I cannot speak for the NPO (though I think they are basically the same structure in regards to shinsa) but with the NTHK it is the same outside of Japan as in. Swords receiving Kanteisho get from 70 - 79 points. You can split this in the middle roughly to equate to Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon. If a sword receives 80 points or higher, it still receives Kanteisho but is eligable to return to shinsa in Japan in November for Yushu Saku, the Juyo equivalent. This level of shinsa can only be performed inside Japan so in answer to your question, yes, they only go to a certain level, but this is not restriced to outside Japan only.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

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Swords receiving Kanteisho get from 70 - 79 points. You can split this in the middle roughly to equate to Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon.

 

Hi Rich et al,

 

I've been kind of wondering at the details of the comparison between NTHK and NBTHK papers. What do you folks think of the accuracy of this chart?-->http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/origcomp.htm

 

I have an NTHK kanteisho wak at 74 points that I've wondered if it would make hozon, but according to the chart hozon starts at about 75 points. I realize they can't exactly be compared side-by-side like this without any leeway, so I guess my question is, what's the leeway?

 

edit - Oh, and to keep this at least partly on topic, I tend to agree with the general consensus about this blade. I've seen a couple of Kiyo katana that blew me away, but this tanto is underwhelming. There are a few blades in the 10-15k range at Aoi that would be money much better spent, IMO.

 

cheers,

/steve

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Guest Simon Rowson

Hi all,

 

Some people have pointed out how mediocre this tanto is for the price being asked.

 

Well, the famous cartoon (of "The Virgin and Child") by Leonardo da Vinci in the National Gallery, London is completely underwhelming compared to the "Mona Lisa" but it's still absolutely priceless because of who made it.

 

Kiyomaro has previously sold for higher than Masamune in Japan and is considered a genius so, obviously, any genuine work of his will be top-dollar.

 

If I was a multi-millionaire, I'd certainly like to own one of his pieces - even a mediocre one like this.

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Hi,

 

What is Shinsa all about?

 

An alternative :

 

- either confirming a kantei

 

or,

 

- confirming the value of a blade

 

 

Kantei as confirming the value of a blade, IMO, is reductive and false.

 

True Nihonto students are able to determine a blade value without any paper.

 

If you go to Aoi Art website, you shall see 2 TH papered katanas :

 

One by by Tsunatoshi and one by Tsunanobu, look at the prices ...

 

 

I remember on the same site an ubu signed ichimonji katana (hozon at most) which sold in a few minutes for 6 000 000 yens.

 

A blade being Hozon, TH, Juyo ... only means that the blade has been submitted to the corresponding shinsa ......

 

Shinsa states quality and not price .. :)

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this tanto is underwhelming

Wow, what you guys see in a low-res pic and Oshigata is quite impressive!

 

All those of you (except Darcy) who actually came nearer than a mile to a Kiyomaro blade -*any* Kiyomaro - raise their hands, please!

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All those of you (except Darcy) who actually came nearer than a mile to a Kiyomaro blade -*any* Kiyomaro - raise their hands, please!

 

(Raises hand) :)

2 Of them at the amazing Taibundo sale that Ichi took me to. Hence why I didn't comment on the thread. You can't appreciate a blade like this from mere photos and oshigata. As per any top class work of art, you have to see it in person to really appreciate it, as Guido has implied.

 

Brian

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... you could have seen it with your own hands.

Erol,

 

you're right, some of them have so much Nie it seems you could read them like Braille ... ;)

 

Yup, pity I couldn't make it that day, but I handled quite a few Kiyomaro in the past, the last time actually last week at a sales exibition. A Katana, slightly Suriage (which the price reflected, "only" Yen 23 million), signed Minamoto Masayuki, TokuHo. It wasn't the first, and hopefully not the last Kiyomaro I held in my sweaty fingers.

 

Almost exactly one year ago, I combined a trip to an Izu hot spring resort with a visit to the Sano museum (actually it was the other way around, but that's how I sold it to my wife). There they had the Kotetsu and Kiyomaro exhibition, with all the swords only inches from you away, all 35 Kiyomaro and all 35 Kotetsu.

 

Besides the fact that I had to stare at a blank sheet of paper for half an hour after that, just to re-boot my brain after the sensory overload, I found very interesting what my wife had to say: not being interested in swords, and knowing next to nothing about them, she was quite taken with the Kiyomaro blades (Kotetsu "didn't do it" for her). Not only the grand Sugata, but how they "shine from within". The first time she wasn't bored being dragged into a sword exhibition by me.

 

Now, if even my sword-knowledge-impaired (Japanese) wife enjoyed the Kiyomaro blades, how wet do you think my pants were?

 

I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't have access to art swords (or doesn't want to bother to go the extra mile to do so), but some of the discussions here remind me of the following fable:

Three blind men encounter an elephant. In attempting to describe the elephant, one blind man embraced the elephant's leg. "It's just like a tree," said the first blind man to his colleagues. "Nonsense," said the second blind man, who was caressing the elephant's trunk. "It's like a great, thick snake." "You are both wrong," exclaimed the third blind man, assaying the elephant's broad flank with both hands. "This elephant is like nothing so much as a huge wall."
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Here is a Kiyomaro

 

http://www.nihontou.net/photo-kityomaro.html

 

Not seen Kiyomaro that I can say was genuine but it might be a Kajihei. I heard Ikkansai Okimasa done a few Kiyomaro awarded with papers.

For the shinsakuto fans what do you think of So Tsutomu's Kiyomaro because some say he is not inferior to the Shinshinto master?

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Jean

 

You are right. It's a heavy wakizashi, 49.10 cm, JUTO. I have handled this sword when it was in old polish with "green paper". See the comment by the unforgettable Han Bing Siong in "Token Bijutsu Winter 1985" and the oshigata published in "Selected fine Japanese Swords from european Collections".

 

Eric

post-369-14196738820226_thumb.jpg

post-369-14196738824399_thumb.jpg

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Hi Eric,

Very interesting - Would there be an oshigata of the Katsumitsu tanto mentioned in the text ?

I wonder how many of the blades featured are still in private European collections and if any have been papered to a higher level.

Do you happen to know if the Kiyomaro got the polish/reappraisal it was apparently due for ?

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Guest Simon Rowson

A truly beautiful sword Guido - I envy you actually having handled it!

Many thanks for the link.

 

The nearest I've got to genuine blades by Kiyomaro is through the glass of the display cabinets at the sword museum in Yoyogi.

 

Best wishes,

Simon

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this tanto is underwhelming

Wow, what you guys see in a low-res pic and Oshigata is quite impressive!

 

All those of you (except Darcy) who actually came nearer than a mile to a Kiyomaro blade -*any* Kiyomaro - raise their hands, please!

 

So very sorry that I haven't had the honour to hold a kiyo blade in hand. I guess that makes me inferior somehow. I stated an opinion based on the picture posted. Has anyone here held this blade in hand? How many of the blades posted here and commented on were held in hand by those making the comments? It may well be a fantastic blade. I personally don't believe in falling over myself for a name, nor paying for it. Maybe that makes me stupid, maybe not. I will freely admit that I have *tons* to learn about nihonto, but if this is the reaction that people have to an opinion, I won't be sharing mine anymore.

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All I can say is that do not fall out with all of us here. I think it is all part of learning for techinaclly superior people to disregard your humble opinion. Happend to me yesterday and after gulping it all down I feel the better for it and I believe I have learnt more from that single experience than I have in months of work....

8)

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Humm...., I don't understand why Tsuruta-san wants to show this Kiyomaro only to the gaijin market. No Japanese page was created for this one. I presume this Kiyomaro is on a consignment basis from an another Japanese dealer who wants to expose to overseas. Or maybe perhaps too expensive for the Japanese market?

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Stever, dont be disheartened about sharing an opinion. Swords are plainly speaking, at the the end of the day is a matter of opinion and to give it objectively in itself is not wrong. Kiyomaro's works is alleged to have been successfully faked so while no doubt he is a supreme smith he isnt untouchable, the best modern toshos have made swords that rivals the best Koto masterpieces. Some people prefer Hizen blades because of its refined hada and perfection, others prefers something louder like a So den Bizen. A hundred years from now later generations might be drumming on about other smiths we today might not give too much concern about.

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I never have problems with educated opinions; I also have no problems with discussing matters of taste. If educated opinions are voiced, we all can learn from them. If people tell us *why* they see a lack of quality, we all can learn from it - maybe we don’t agree, but that doesn’t matter. If people tell us how certain blades by the same smith differ in artistic merit, we all can learn from it. If people explain or give an opinion on why they perceive certain smiths’ work as superior or inferior, we all can learn from it.

 

Calling a work by a smith who’s considered a genius by most professionals and educated collectors “underwhelming†begs the question of what makes it inferior, and why it is overpriced. What hands-on experience and market study enables one to make such an authoritative statement?

 

How about “Judging by the weak outlay of the Hamon, and lack of Sunagashi, it appears to be made around Kaei when there was more alcohol than blood in his veins. I came to this conclusion after taking every opportunity to examine his swordsâ€. Not that I’m saying this is the case here, but we would have a *real* opinion we could discuss and learn from. But calling the blade sub-standard only for the sake of being confrontational is not very profound.

 

If my point of view makes me appearing jaded, so be it. I’d rather be called “jaded†than “ignorantâ€.

 

I’m not sure anymore what NMB is all about; not about learning, it seems. Maybe it should be renamed “Samurai Sword Opinion Boardâ€, with an explanation in bold letters that all opinions are equal. And a special moderator will be assigned to comfort whiners.

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