ROKUJURO Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 These are weapons for close quarters combat. A KATANA in a palanquin is not of great use! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Only just spotted this thread with Ron fighting his corner sturdily but almost all alone! It was interesting to read this and see that Ron is almost 100% on target with what he is saying, and hedging his words wisely when he is not sure. :lol: (I just bought a Tanegashima long gun yesterday with an iron external spring.) Not diplomatic perhaps, but his words are weighed and fair. To me this gun looks like a tourist gun, or something a pirate might have carried, cobbled roughly together with a few leftover genuine bits. Too dangerous for a child's toy, too big for a child's gun. The whole thing is wrong, as has been said above, from the texture of the wood, to the shortness of the barrel (sawn off?) to the odd decorations on it, to the shape of the serpentine, having very little Japanese feeling to it. If you had said Chinese, or south-east Asian, then just maybe perhaps. How much did you pay for this, Bill? You must have liked it when you bought it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 All I can really add is that I, and many others, saw this one for sale many weeks ago. And there is a reason none of us enquired or went after it. Nothing on it is "right" for all the reasons expressed. At best, some put together project by someone who didn't have access to a real one in Japan, and maybe had access to some parts. Like a Japanese hunter or peasant? Maybe 1800's like you ask...I don't think it is modern. But not right in all other aspects. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 I am paying $1400 for this matchlock. I am sending payment out today, express. What percentage of Japanese Matchlocks are marked under the barrel? Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Grant Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Way too much $. You can buy a good signed long gun for this. As for % of signatures, 40-50% maybe. Just because it is signed does not make it real, fake signatures are not common, but exist, and a lot of names (smiths) are unrecorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 [edit] Since the decision has been taken we can only wait and see what will reveal itself. KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Dear Bugyotsuji , Can you post a picture of the tanegashima with the iron spring you have? Do you think its original to the gun, and how old is it? I may be rare to have an original iron external spring. Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Payment has been sent already. And I am good on my word to pay for it. The only reason I would return it is if the iron pan is drilled through, and they said it was not, a return based on false information. Possibly a return based on the understanding it was supposed to be a childs gun, and of imperial use. I may be able to return it on that account. In any case, I want to remove the barrel to see if it has some good signature and information on it. I will post pictures once this is done. What's wrong with the wood? I assumed it was rippled because of shrinkage and great age. Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Grant Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Sir Piers lives in Japan, and I am not sure he is still awake. Good luck with your decision on purchase. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 If I am correct then Bill bought it on auction. So kudos to you for having the ethics to go through with a promised purchase. I consider that an honorable thing to do unless there are significant flaws not shown in pics, or deliberate misrepresentations. I don't see good rifles for that price Justin....please point out the next ones you see. Most I see are above $2K. Anyways, it's a high price for this piece, but let's see what it looks like in hand. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Grant Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 If I am correct then Bill bought it on auction. So kudos to you for having the ethics to go through with a promised purchase. I consider that an honorable thing to do unless there are significant flaws not shown in pics, or deliberate misrepresentations.I don't see good rifles for that price Justin....please point out the next ones you see. Most I see are above $2K. Anyways, it's a high price for this piece, but let's see what it looks like in hand. Brian Brian, I said good, like the long riffle at Rago, it was good. Great do go for more money. This one sold for $600 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 I thought it wise to pay as promised. And get it in hand for further evaluation. 40-50% marked barrels is a pretty good chance for more information. Why does it look like this matchlock looks cut down? Was it a rifle or a carbine? Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 What is your guys opinions on me trying to see if I can test fire it with a 25 caliber bullet? Is it dangerous. I plan on making sure there is not a loaded charge already inside it. Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Justin, That one, and the one you got, were a bargain that won't come along for a long, long time again. Right place, right time. But to suggest that prices like that are common is far from real. Bill, no..no...and no. I don't think it is a working gun anyways, but the usual advice exists out of necessity. Ask a qualified gunsmith before doing anything at all. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Grant Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 I'd not fire it to save my life unless you know the barrel is strong enough to withstand the pressure. And I'd find the proper load and round ball, and before that, and I was sure it was sound, I'd just run smaller powder charges in it. Your call, your item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Grant Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Brian, We had one listed here a year or so ago that was suspected of being Osaka Castle era gun for under 2K, and Mark (Board member) had one last year maybe for $1500. Auctions are littered with them for between $1000-$2000. You won't find deals on the traditional web pages for Japanese artifacts. Yes, mine was a deal, but that standard range seems to be $1500-$2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsonmil Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Dear Bill, I give up ! As for Brian and his " kudos ", .... Kudus live in South Africa. In this case if as Bill says the seller claimed it to be a Child's matchlock with Imperial provenance no less, ... I would think such rubbish could well be considered " misrepresentation " and grounds for returning it. Perhaps $ 1400.00 is pocket change to some on this forum, ... but it is far from pocket change for most of us. I retire to await those I may help, ... and YES as Justin so correctly pointed out a decent matchlock is still obtainable for under $ 1500.00. They are not common to find at this price however I will admit. A lot depends upon the country in which the matchlock is being sold, ... some countries have more interest. A good place to buy is probably a French auction ... just as a hint. ... Ron Watson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kai-Gunto Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 "Fake"from India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Do you guys think my childs matchlock is made in Japan, or a cheap India or other matchlock? Someone seems to think so. I express mailed my payment today, and paid for express shipment of the matchlock to me in return. So I will know in 2 days if there is a signature under the barrel. Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Bill I am sure many of us would like to see more and better images. I for one am interested in the engravings on the Messing/Brass on the back of the stock. I must warn you though not to try to fire this thing. If you have access to a licensed gunsmith I would let that person check the gun out first. I cannot say whether it is Japanese or Indian. It might as well be a marriage as others have stated on here. KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 I thought the engraved metal strip on the back of the stock looked more like brass. Does it look like copper to you? What is your interest in the designs? To see if it looks Japanese, or something else? Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Sorry, brass indeed. I am wondering since I seem to see what seem to be patterns there. (as far as I can see from the small images in the post) Any engraving on a gun is always of interest. Is this the first gun you ever bought ? KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Brass then. I'll be sure to upload more and detailed pictures of the gun after I get it the day after tomorrow. Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 I have bought very few guns, mostly ones that seem unusual. This is my first matchlock, and I got it because it looked so different from others I have seen on the web, and I wanted to learn all about it, where it was made, by who, and dating, etc. That's what piques my interest. And I like to find early examples of things, and it is my suspect that this gun is far older than a date of 1800, what do you think? Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Here are a few examples, more or less the same length, I let you compare http://www.seiyudo.com/gu-08031.htm http://www.seiyudo.com/gu-030811.htm http://www.seiyudo.com/gu-010701.htm http://www.seiyudo.com/gu-010510.htm http://www.seiyudo.com/gu-098090.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Any ideas about the powder flasks that come with my matchlock? Do they look Japanese? I saw a few examples of Japanese powder flasks up for sale on Ebay in the $300 range. Do you think I might sell them for as much as that, incomplete as one of them is? I might be able to recoup some of my money if I decide I must keep it. Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 I have noticed a major difference from the links to authentic Japanese pistols to mine. The serpentine hammers have a very short left side (might be because these examples have internal mainsprings) and angular bend, and my serpentine is a graceful gentle curve on both sides. Also the right side of the Japanese authentic ones are angularly sloped, with a close large head for the match to attach to, where mine doesn't seem to have anything like that at all. Are my observations correct? What do you make of these details? Are Rifles serpentines anything more like mine, especially the ones with external springs? Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Grant Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Bill, I'd be shocked if this thing is Japanese. Just look at what Jean posted, what you have to a casual observer could be thought of as a Japanese matchlock, but upon closer examination, it is not. Did you notice that bright shiny appearance to the one flask and the perfect gold kamon on it? You'd think that after just a few years of use it would get scuffed up and after a hundred years it would be almost like the other one. I'd be suspect on that as well. Some of the flasks can go for good money, some not so much. You won't make much on them compared to what you spent for them. There are a bunch of fake or "museum quality reproduction" of teppo out there and being made in India, and Indonesia. If it is Japanese, I'd bet it was made by someone that had limited skill and abilities and made it from parts for personal use. It is not for a child, and it is not, in any way for Imperial purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Grant Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Bill, Here is mine off a Japanese riffle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdjensen123 Posted December 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Attached is a picture of a Japanese (edited as par a writer's suggestion) matchlock, the one on the bottom. Note the graceful S curve of the serpentine hammer. This looks more like mine. So it appeas that the hammer at least is Japanese in character, albiet unusual. Sincerely, Bill Jensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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