Yasukuni swords in Type 3 mounts?

[george trotter]

Just thought I'd ask...has anyone seen a Yasukuni blade in Type 3 mounts? (pic?).

I have seen a number in Type 98 and even one in a Navy "Type Tachi" mount, but can't remember ever seeing a Type 3.

Regards,

[Bruno]

Never saw one. Could that mean Yasukuni smiths stopped forging blades for IJA before 1943?

[cabowen]

I have never seen one either.

 

Yasukuni smiths worked until the end of the war...

[george trotter]

Hmmm, thanks Bruno and Chris...interesting.

Chris, you haven't seen one in your 14 years in Japan, or in the years since, and there are none shown in Tom Kishida's book, so the chances are low that there are very few/none. Maybe one will turn up... like the Navy mount I saw which contained a Kotani Yasunori 1937....maybe not unique, but certainly rare.

Hopefully, someone will still come forward...

Regards,

[Bruno]

Maybe Yasukuni blades were considered of higher quality than average to good RJT smiths and showato smiths, so they keep issuing them in Type 98 mounts as Type 3 mounts were more of a lower quality, or less class.

 

One can wonder if in general, top rated smiths blades were ever found in Type 3 mounts, not only Yasukuni smiths?

 

My 2 cents.

[george trotter]

I'm not so sure about the quality aspect Bruno.

I have a Nakata Kanehide in Type 3 mounts...he is rated 2M yen in post war references.

While there were far more smiths in the RJT scheme, a number of them rate close to, equal to or even higher than the Yasukuni tosho in the post-war scales

(I gave a comparable list of Seki gendai smiths versus Yasukuni smiths on NMB about a year ago and the Seki smiths, as a group, had a higher overall Yen rating than the Yasukuni group (of course, collectors still chase Yasukuni swords as a higher preference) see...

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13825&p=119798&hilit=seki+smith=rating#119798

...and scroll down to 8th post.

Please take the discussion as being done in a different focus...while blades are one important aspect, the choice of mounts may be driven by some other factors.

 

Just why no Yasukunito have been found (yet?) in Type 3 mounts is a mystery...I don't think it is a "lack of quality" aspect as some good blades by other makers have been found in relatively "ordinary" Type 3 mounts.

Regards,

[Brian]

Would be very interesting to know what this report on the Type 3 says:

http://ohmura-study.net/286.html

 

I have never seen a good blade in the one type of Type 3 fittings...with the lighter non-speckled scabbard. But have seen a large number of good blades in the darker scabbard type with laquered ito. Not sure how to name these 2 patterns.

Are they both classed as Type 3's?

 

http://ohmura-study.net/750.html#%8EO%8 ... 6%DA%8E%9F

 

Only the better fittings/blades pictured.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

There seem to be several variations on the type 3 theme. I would put them into two groups: those with lacquered tauka-ito and wood lacquered saya, and those with unlacquered ito and metal saya, usually a light, olive green color.

 

The first type above are often found with RJT blades and I have to wonder if they weren't developed at the same time as the RJT program was launched, and possibly specifically for the RJT blades. Sometimes non star stamped blades are found in them too, but nearly always better quality blades.

 

The second type, in my experience, are always found with with low end, machine made showa-to blades. I have NEVER seen one with a quality blade.

 

Yasukuni blades were mounted, in practice, by the army in mountings made for them specifically. I think they kept the older mounting style for them, as they were considered high class, and wanted them to be considered the top shelf item. No doubt the Yasunori in Navy mounts is rare; possibly privately remounted.

 

The RJT were not directly employed by the army but worked at their home forges, for the most part, producing swords under contract. I believe these two programs (Yasukuni and RJT) were independently run and managed.

 

Regarding values of Seki and Yasukuni smiths, these values as mentioned are usually based on post war blades and contest results. On average, the Yasukuni smiths were head and shoulders above the Seki smiths in quality. There was no one in Seki who could compare to the best of the Yasukuni smiths, even Watanabe Kanenaga, considered the best, comes up short based on what I have seen of his work in comparison to that of the two Yasunori smiths, Yasumitsu, and Yasuhiro.

[george trotter]

Brian san,

The first link is to the newspaper articles announcing the introduction of the new type of fittings, and also the drawing from the army information pamphlet that describes the new variation...too long for me to translate (I could do it but you and I would be a lot older by then...)

The second link shows the early/high quality lacquer type Type 3 (often RJT and other gendaito blades) and also the lower group is the better later/lower quality type. All? of these later/lower type have good blades by such as RJT Sadaroku and a Nakata Kanehide ...(see 2 lower pics of red lacquered tsuka type)...some do not have dust cover seppa, but I think all/most have second button.

This link does not show the lowest quality "awful" variation with steel (lighter brownish) scabbard and unlacquered tsuka ito.

 

This "awful" type usually have no second button on the sayaguchi and usually have no dust cover seppa....usually 99.99% showato blades....BUT...this will interest you Chris...I say 99.99% as I have seen 2 star stamped blades in these...1 by Nakata Kanehide (see top pic) and 1 by (forget, but Seki I think), and a third also by Nakata Kanehide, but with no star and no tiny seki stamps as it had a hagiri.

The only difference with these 3 and the other "awful" variety was that these all had the second button and the dust cover seppa, BUT imho, the mount quality is way below the blade quality. Maybe only the hagiri Kanehide "deserved" the mounts.

As all the blades I have seen in these were dated late 1944-45, maybe it is a sign that like the better later/lower group with black lacquer saya - red lacquer ito, these good blades in "awful" mounts are towards the end of the war and some corners were being cut in mountings quality? or maybe, it was just convenient for the showato mounting shops to use some "awful" fittings on some RJT swords? who knows.

 

As for the comparitive ratings, yes, I know they are based on post-war criteria and while Kanehide is well thought of, (see "Nihonto Zukan" Tokuno p.172.) now, whether his wartime work was as good as now or as good as Yasukuni, I leave to others...although I can say that I have seen both from the wartime and the Kanehide work impressed me highly (especially the hagiri blade which was wide choji with long ashi - hence the hagiri), and appealed more than the Yasukuni (sorry) probably because the Yasukuni work is more "sedate" in style ...of course I would have bought them (great work) but all 3 or 4 that I was offered over the years had rotten tangs for some reason.

 

So..., I still just can't understand why high quality Type 3 fittings have not yet been seen on Yasukuni...strange IMHO.

Regards,

[kusunokimasahige]

The Ohmura site is quite extensive about Type 3 swords :

 

http://ohmura-study.net/750.html

 

But really, do we know where the swords were mounted at all ? Also, which companies delivered the mountings where.

Did Yasukuni have its own mounting agency ?

 

I think that the Type 3 did not become so abundant that it would have replaced the regular koshirae type, at least, that is also what I read on the site. The type 98 scabbards kept being produced.

 

KM

[runagmc]

For me, I wonder about the theory that it was due to Yasukuni-to being of higher quality. Like George said, weren't 4 seki smiths (Watanabe Kanenaga, Kanemichi, Kanenobu and Kanehide) rated higher (2M) at that time. I guess it is possible that the TokoTaikan ratings didn't truthfully reflect the Gendai smiths popularity, or maybe knowledge was just lacking of the Yasukuni smiths at the time.

 

Anyway, I have a Kiwa Kanenobu, made in 1943, in the better quality (type 3) dark brown laquered ito, and saya. And no, I can't remember seeing a Yasukuni-to in type 3 mounts, either.

[kusunokimasahige]

Here is a Type 3 sword I found on fleabay... Not a Yasukuni smith as far as I know.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-3Japanese-WWl ... 6016.l4276

[cabowen]

For me, I wonder about the theory that it was due to Yasukuni-to being of higher quality. Like George said, weren't 4 seki smiths (Watanabe Kanenaga, Kanemichi, Kanenobu and Kanehide) rated higher (2M) at that time. I guess it is possible that the TokoTaikan ratings didn't truthfully reflect the Gendai smiths popularity, or maybe knowledge was just lacking of the Yasukuni smiths at the time.

 

 

 

by "rated higher (2M) at that time", what "time" are you referring to? Toko Taikan is a post war publication. During the war, the Yasukuni smiths weren't really "ranked" as they were employed by the government, essentially and did not enter the war era contests while employed at the Jinja. The only exception is the end of war Army contest where several Yasukuni smiths were entered. As I recall they did quite well.

 

I have seen a large number of Yasukuni blades as well as quite a few of each of the Seki smiths listed. If we limit the sample to just war era blades, there is no question that in my experience, the Yasukuni blades are superior in nearly every way. I have seen a few blades by Kanenaga and Kanehide that were very nice, but of those I have seen, and it is quite a few, they are usually lacking in the finishing and are a bit crude in comparison. I usually get the feeling from the Seki blades that they were cranked out as quickly as possible without a lot of attention to detail. Yasukuni blades were put through a regular shinsa and monetary prizes were awarded for quality work. Late in the war the smiths were pressed for production, but for the most part, there is a lot of care and attention to detail visible in Yasukuni blades that I don't find, in general, in Seki work.

[george trotter]

Chris is right about the Toko Taikan ranking...it is post-war ranking. About the only sources we have for contemporary wartime ranking are the Shinsakuto Tenran "seat rankings" shown in Slough and probably the various comments in wartime magazine such as Nihonto oyobi Nihon Shumi 1934-1945, and possibly the prominence given to some smiths in wartime publications such as Nihon Token Shoko Meikan 1942. In this latter there are several wartime Seki smith oshigata but none from Yasukuni...this may just mean that the Yasukuni Tosho were a "closed market - assured customer" situation and so were not "public performers" as such...but the teaching smiths were certainly chosen from the "open-market" and were engaged because of their talent.

 

While not claiming that Seki is equal or superior to Yasukuni work I can say personally that when a good blade by Kanenaga or Kanehide comes to hand they stand out as special (and I am not a "Seki man"). While I do recognise the quality in most of the Yasukuni blades I have held, they did not "leap out" at me, they are "quiet"...but this is my opinion/recollection only. I do know that the "sword world" has recognised Yasukunito and their quality has been attested to by experts.

 

Just getting back to the OP...we are still no closer to finding a Yasukunito-Type 3 combination...I don't necessarily say that one is not out there, more likely no-one has even thought to ask before (sorry) and it will take time to get the query around and find an answer.

Maybe Brian and/or our multi-Nihonto Club -nihonto networkers etc could send this query to some of their other forums and get back to us? (of course I realise that NMB is the best :lol: ...but maybe the "others" could help us solve this question?

Regards,

[David Flynn]

I must concur with George as regards to Yasukuni swords and Seki swords. I have a sword by Yasutoku (Yasunori) and I believe some of my Seki swords are better. But here I am diverging from the topic. No I haven't seen a Yasukuni sword in 44mounts.

[cabowen]

While not claiming that Seki is equal or superior to Yasukuni work I can say personally that when a good blade by Kanenaga or Kanehide comes to hand they stand out as special (and I am not a "Seki man"). While I do recognise the quality in most of the Yasukuni blades I have held, they did not "leap out" at me, they are "quiet"...but this is my opinion/recollection only. I do know that the "sword world" has recognised Yasukunito and their quality has been attested to by experts.

 

 

Many people fail to appreciate Yasukuni blades and indeed most are not flashy in the least, but very reserved. Especially those by the Ikeda Yasumitsu branch of smiths which are mostly done in suguha. You do see, fairly often, choji in the work of Kajiyama and gunome with deep ashi is Kotani's work, however. The big, flamboyant choji of Kanehide is easy to like, though it isn't traditional Seki work. Some people even seem to actually like the sanbon-sugi! On a basic level, much comes down to personal preference.

 

Due to the shinsa and quality control, you very rarely see a poor Yasukuni blade. The quality did decline a bit towards the end of the war, but on average, they are excellent blades, made with the best materials and high quality craftsmanship/finishing. I haven't found that to be true of Seki work in general.

 

I have no doubt that there may well be blades by Seki smiths that are very well made. One can always find particular examples to make a point, but I am speaking to the general level of workmanship and finishing among the thousands I have seen. A lot too depends on your sample size. And personal taste.

[george trotter]

I have no doubt that there may well be blades by Seki smiths that are very well made. One can always find particular examples to make a point, but I am speaking to the general level of workmanship and finishing among the thousands I have seen. A lot too depends on your sample size. And personal taste.

 

Absolutely correct. My sample size for both Seki gendaito and Yasukuni is small. All I could report above was what I had found on that sample.

I agree that the large choji by Kanehide is rare and not typical (only had 2 in hand) but I must say, while many term his Seki hamon as sanbonsugi, I would characterise it more as gonome with some togari. But even though I am not a fan of such hamon I have kept an example by him as just to pick it up and look at the quality of the workmanship of both blade and hamon is a delight...worth keeping just for the quality, even though not my favourite hamon. With the Yasukuni, conversely, I have only had the more sedate sugu based hamon in hand...good work yes for sure, but to me they did not affect me as much....as you say Chris, my small sample and my personal taste plays a strong part in my opinion.

 

But...still we need an answer to the question of the decade (for me at least) where are the Type 3 mounted Yasukunito?

This is hopefully going to amaze us like the time I asked if anyone had ever seen a Type 3 sword with a mon...answer no, never. Lo and behold, within a week or two? one turned up on Roy Lindus' site (see Military Swords of Japan thread ...arsenal stamps p.12). Hopefully it will happen again,

regards,

[kusunokimasahige]

In stead of going for "The blades" I think one should investigate the mounts.

 

And that means, looking up all information on the various mount types, companies who made those mounts, arsenals who used the mounts which were delivered where, who made what, and were any of the type 3 mounts ever delivered to Yasukuni if they had their own mounting department. If not, who mounted Yasukuni blades and where, and with what, of which company.

 

KM

[cabowen]

But...still we need an answer to the question of the decade (for me at least) where are the Type 3 mounted Yasukunito?

 

While I have never seen one or heard of one, never say never....I wouldn't be at all surprised if one turned up. Still, I don't think it was a standard practice; if one does turn up, it would most likely be something privately mounted/remounted.

[Brian]

Another question would be...has anyone seen a poor (Showato) blade in the better type 3 mounts?

I have only seen better quality blades in these mounts, and the poorer quality ones in the olive drab metal scabbard variant.

 

Brian

[EdO]

maybe some answers

 

Suya company at Tokyo made most of the koshirae for the Yasukunito I have seen.

production of swords was ended in the Yasukuni jinja at the end of 1944 when they moved to a other location.

only a very low number of swords where made at the new location.

the latest date I have seen on a Yasukunito tachi (seen some tanto and a wakizashi with a later date) was a Yasushige made in November 1944 the original mounting where still the type 94!

 

regards

Ed S

[takakage]

Few years ago i remember a yasuhiro dated showa 19 with a type 3 mounts, ishime black saya and silver plated tsuba. This blade was sold by a Japanese shop. It is the only i saw.

[EdO]

Yasuhiro left the shrine in December 1936 he only went back a couple of times and than he used Yasuhiro again out of the shrine the most common mei he used is Kunimori are you sure it was a Miyaguchi Yasuhiro? chance is big it was another smith with the same name.

 

regards

Ed S

[takakage]

I remember this blade signed miyaguchi yasuhiro (yasukuni shrine) not kunimori. It was a special order sword. It was an auction at a Japanese shop.

[EdO]

would have loved to see that one.

 

Ed S

[takakage]

Me too, i have tried to bid.....but more of 900 000 yens

I have posted the link auction to our french form.

[EdO]

Hi Patrick,

 

can you maybe place the link here also ?

would be interesting to see.

 

Ed S

[takakage]

Impossible for me to post the link, it was in 2008 !! and morever i am not a member of this forum anymore; i hope an other french member could do that. ...Sorry

 

May be someone remember this sword, it was listed to an aoi art auction.

[cabowen]

He still signed some after leaving "Yasuhiro", but blades made by Yasuhiro after he left the Yasukuni Tanrenjo are not considered Yasukuni blades...

[w.y.chan]

Here is a Miyaguchi Yasuhiro