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sashikomi/hadori


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Ummm...did anyone see the message I posted last night (early morn here)?...it seems to have disappeared.

Curious...I wonder if it can be retrieved?

My "missing" post was a response or two on Chris and Brian's comments on the apparent inconsistency in my arguments, which, I think, are not so conflicting as one might think....I hope I clarify myself here.

For me, the how/why we polish all comes down to what the intention of the original smith was versus the intention of the modern polisher, and who has the greater legitimacy, smith or polisher?

 

All my comments have been in terms of swords in an original polish from Edo period - 1945, when almost 100% were sashikomi. Since these blades were all made when sashikomi was the standard polish the smith could ONLY have envisioned the sword in a sashikomi finish and therefore the smith's "intention" was a sashikomi "look". Sashikomi is therefore the "right intention" of polishing pre-1945 swords and IMHO a modern polisher should follow the "right intention" of the smith ...if he does hadori it is artistically and historically against the intentions of the pre-1945 smith... it becomes the post-1954 intention of the polisher and ceases to be "what it is" and becomes "what it is wanted to be".

A sword made after 1954 has the smith's intention to finish as a hadori finished "look", but some smiths in rediscovering the koto-shinto period may wish sashikomii, so either polish is appropriate as we are now in the period of artistic copying of the past or of "new" metalurgical experiments in forging...anything the smith (or polisher and smith together) decide is "polished as intended by the smith".

 

Hamon: Sashikomi shows the hamon as the smith made it. In hadori I don't think I am conflicted when I say it "obscures". It is a fact that the hadori polisher is the one who "draws the hamon" on the blade, so it is not the true hamon. It is also a fact that flaws can be hidden by hadori...this must mean it is a "cosmetic" finish. This is confirmed as the characteristics cannot be naturally viewed side-on (see both pics), in other words, the details are obscured from natural sight. To view these "true" characteristics under the cosmetic surface it must be in hand and one must "view it properly".

In sashikomi one can see both hamon and hada side-on with natural sight, that is, without the blade in hand. Of course, if one has it in hand and "views it properly" one can see more). Just on this point Chris, logic (sorry Brian) says that if sashikomi allows both side-on and in-hand appraisal it must be TWICE as good as hadori which is only in-hand! :D

 

Hada: Yes, hada is a kantei point. As you quoted Chris, I said "only the true hamon ...and hada characteristics must be seen ..this is what sashikomi does". Chris, (with respect) you say I am conflicted in next saying that "I must confess that I have to admit that in my WWII sashikomi blades the hada is less apparent than in modern hadori polish". In answer I have to say that I should have added that in my WWII hadori polished blades the hada is even less apparent! But, in these two cases (sashikomi/hadori) I think this has more to do with the tight hada than the polish? We all know that from Meiji-1945 the changes in steels, forging etc show a much tighter hada emerges...even with almost mu-hada being often seen. In this case I think the "modern" tight hada is the real culprit here, not necessarily the style of polish and I don't feel "conflicted" in my statements as I notice that in this case sashikomi does reveal hada...more than the hadori. In many cases of course hadori reveals it more when viewed "properly"...if it is there. :)

 

On your point "sashikomi does not fully present the hada" I have to say yes I agree/no I don't agree. By this I mean I believe in a "natural balance" between hamon and hada. True, it can be said that sashikomi is not as "revealing" of hada as hadori, but sashikomi does reveal the hada charcteristics. In contrast to "presenting" or revealing" the hada in a balanced way with the hamon it should be said that hadori "enhances" that hada, far beyond the "natural balance" of hamon/hada of sashikomi....(much more than is necessary IMHO).

You have much more experience with polish than me...can I ask about hadori in terms of tight hada/almost mu-hada? In modern WWII smiths and also those from the past like the Hizen "Tada" smiths this tight hada is a feature. The Hizen work has always been kantei'd in terms of its tight hada; being termed koitame and nashiji etc. Does hadori "reveal" this "more" in a significant way? Also, in relation to this hada and sashikomi, as the kantei point of the Hizen smiths since c.1600 is this fine hada and their work was all originally polished and kantei'd in sashikomi polish...surely this alone shows that sashikomi "reveals/presents" the hada characteristics in an adequate way? In addition, can I ask if modern "super revealing" hadori has caused any change in these early kantei points? ....I would be interested to know.

 

Regarding polish: We collect swords...IMHO the characteristics of the sword should be seen, and "the polish should be invisible". It seems to me that sashikomi shows the sword and hadori shows the polish . In the pics below (same photographer, same place, same date, same lighting) you will notice that the hada and hamon on the sashikomi blade (BM #79 Tenryushi Masataka C,19th) are both clearly visible while on the hadori blade (BM #49 Yokoyama Sukenaga 1824) the hamon is "obscured" and the hada is "invisible".... :lol:

Lots of fun :) I have enjoyed the discussion

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George, I can’t understand why you still hold on to the misconception that all swords polished until 1945 were done in Sashikomi. Although Sashikomi is indeed the earlier form of (final) polishing, Hadori was used at least from the mid-Edo period on according to old records, and possibly even earlier. However, the care that is exercised in doing Hadori as we know it now, and the level of whitening of the Hamon / Hataraki, as well as the degree of darkening of the Jihada trough Nugui, is something that came with the advent of the light bulb. Electricity didn't only enable the polisher to work with a constant, bright source of light, but makes it easier to see the various Hataraki clearly, and the Honami family responded to the call of connoisseurs to refine their techniques in accordance with the improved conditions of appreciating swords. No conspiracy, no brainwashing. The light bulb, btw, was introduced to Japan well before 1952 ;).

 

If we follow your reasoning, and Sashikomi is better because it preceded Hadori, and therefore is the more traditional method, we should collect pre-Edo swords only in Shiratogi, i.e. not going beyond the Komanagura stone; actually, there wouldn’t be much to look at at all :cry:.

 

Another reason for believing Sashikomi is more traditional could be a misunderstanding: many swords "lost" their Hadori polish, and may appear as if done in Sashikomi. A polish lasts only so long, and after decades of using Uchiko - which is powdered polishing stone - Hadori tends to fade.

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George-

 

As far as I can tell, you seem to base your argument for sashikomi on several points- it is the traditional polish, it is the better aesthetic polish, and it is technically the superior polish.

 

A few things to consider:

 

Polishing, just as sword smithing, has evolved over time. New materials, methods, and techniques have been developed to meet the changing requirements and perceptions of the sword through history.

 

The further back in time one goes, the less is known about the techniques used to polish, and the finished appearance of the sword. We do know, however, that the techniques and materials have changed over time and it is commonly accepted that the appearance of the polished sword has changed in step as a result.

 

We do know that fundamentally, the original purpose of the Japanese sword was to cut. The purpose of the polish was to make the blade sharp, At some point it was discovered that by polishing the blade with finer and finer stones, a sharper edge could be obtained. Concurrently, it was noticed that such polishing revealed the structure of the blade and this thus permitted inspection of the craftsmanship inherent in the blade, and therefore, assisted in the assessment of its utility as a weapon. Soon thereafter, if not concurrently, aesthetics began to enter into the equation.

 

At some point, exactly when is not clearly known, the sword went from being simply a weapon, to something much much more. Similarly, the usage changed through time, as did its place/role in Japanese culture.

 

So, there can be no doubt that the craft- both sword and polishing, has changed and evolved through time, with polishing changing to adapt to new needs. So has the usage- from tachi to uchigatana back to tachi in WWII. Likewise, so has the role the sword has played- from simple weapon to the soul of the samurai to art object coveted by people all over the world. Change is manifest through new needs. The sword, and polishing, in response to new demands, has evolved. In fact, the most fundamental of traditions is one of change to meet the times.

 

The craft, the usage, and the perception of the sword have all changed over time- indeed, they have all contributed to, in varying degrees at different times, to both the evolution of the sword and how it is defined/perceived.

 

When the wearing of the sword was banned, it's practical value was nearly eliminated and in its place, its artistic value took center stage. To meet these new demands, polishing, once again, evolved. As I have said too many times now, a key reason the hadori polish was developed was to better display the hada, along with the hamon, so that inherent craftsmanship could better be appreciated.

 

Now, you may well argue that it was created for collectors, and you would be right. In this day and age, we are all collectors, not samurai. Swords are now only relevant, if at all, as collectibles. They are now art and judged as such. Modern kesho togi was developed to fulfill that new role.

 

You can claim that sashikomi is traditional and therefore the most appropriate and that is why you prefer it. Yet the sashikomi of today and that of 100 years ago is different. The polishing arts of today, of a 100 years ago and that of 600 years ago are all different. What is the real traditional? In an evolving art, any definition is artificial at best.

 

A sword and its polish go together like a hand and glove. It is integral to the whole. The sword is not finished until it is polished. In other words, they are not separable but rather parts of the whole. The Japanese sword, without the polisher's contribution, would not be appreciated as it is. It is the polish that allows the beauty inherent in the blade to be displayed and appreciated. Each are vital and do not exist without the other. I have known well many smiths and polishers. While I can't know the hearts and minds of craftsman from 100's of years gone by, I can say that it is highly likely that human nature hasn't changed all that much. With that in mind, I can say that at the most basic level, all craftsman want to earn a living, and they all want their work to be appreciated. To do both, a smith is highly dependent on a polisher. Smiths go to great lengths to find a polisher that brings out the best in their blades, often trying many different togi-shi. Why? Because it is crucial to sales to showcase their work in the best possible light. What style is chosen overwhelmingly? Not sashikomi. Hadori evolved to showcase the attributes of a blade- if it failed to do this, it would have died out long ago. While I can't argue aesthetics with you as there is no arguing personal taste, I can only offer that in Japan, hadori is the mainstream. In my mind, if smiths did not think it presented their blades in the best possible light, they wouldn't be using it.

 

You seem to base at least part of your argument on the question "should modern polishing techniques be used on older blades?" This is an entirely differently argument than "which polish better suits the aesthetics of a blade". In the world of Japanese sword appreciation, I look to Japan for guidance-their swords, their culture, their rules.. Swords have always been repolished using the state of the current art, rather than some retro approach from the original era of the blade. This is simply how it is done with Japanese swords in Japan. That is THEIR tradition. They do not follow the Western approach which is gospel among the museum crowd of "leaving everything original". Your insistence on repolishing in sashkomi because it is "traditional" fails on two levels: first- there is no "traditional" as mentioned above. Secondly, to keep things "original", is YOUR tradition, not the standard in Japan when it comes to the preservation of Japanese swords.

 

Finally, we come to the technical merits, which hinge on the question of which polish best displays the attributes of a blade. You continue to contend that a hadori polish hides flaws, creates an artificial hamon, hides details, etc. In fact, it does not hide flaws, nor the hamon, from experienced eyes. If it truly did all of these things, it would not be the overwhelming preference of smiths and collectors in Japan- smiths and collectors in Japan would simply not continue to request it, swords in hadori would not be used in kantei, shinsa teams would refuse them.

 

Superficially, hadori can mask flaws, a missing hamon, etc., and can make a tired old blade, much like a woman past her prime, look better in the moonlight after a few guinomi of sake (or in a photo as you have shown). We all know that all the makeup in the world can't hide the truth, and in the morning light, when the fog lifts, when we can all see clearly, that truth is obvious.

 

So, this long winded response can be summed up as follows: we can't pull the "it's traditional" card to justify sashikomi as there is no "one" traditional technique. We can't claim it better presents the craftsmanship in a blade because the dearth present today in its usage clearly says otherwise. We can't claim it is best, or in better keeping with tradition, to polish an old blade in the style popular when it was originally forged, because that is not the Japanese tradition. We can't say sashikomi is more in keeping with the smith's intentions as it is the intention of all smiths to present their blade in the best possible light, and they overwhelmingly choose hadori today.

 

Pictures are really meaningless, unless you are trying to show that hadori doesn't photo easily. I won't argue that point, but it is simply false to assume what doesn't photo isn't really there...Unless you collect pictures of swords, it is a straw man.

 

As I said many key strokes ago, there is no arguing personal taste. If you simply like the look, there can be no debate. But please, don't try to justify it on the grounds that it is traditional, that it somehow is more in keeping with a smith's goals, or that it somehow is technically superior in showcasing the craftsmanship in a blade, or that hadori fails in some way to present the details in a blade. Those arguments George, with the same respect, simply hold no water....

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Mmmm...my daughter just brought me a caramel sundae from Macca's...

 

Thank you both for your detailed responses. I feel guilty to have put you to so much trouble...I think it a good thing that we have all expressed the pros and cons of the hadori/sashikomi question and from this I trust newer members will pick up some insight pro and con.

 

First of all you are both correct in what you have said, but again I disagree with some parts because of certain circumstances.

 

Guido, I do not have a misconception that all polishes before 1945 were in sashikomi...I knew this matter would come up, but I started at the Edo period - 1945 because, in general, sashikomi is what most of the blades from this period have come down to us in. I know other less "revealing" polishes existed prior to and into the early Edo and that other forms of polish were utilised (hadori type too maybe?), but that virtually all were re-polished by modern times so that the "other than sashikomi" types of Edo polish are not really discussable. So much so in fact, that as a museum type person I would be a bit surprised if a pre-sashikomi blade from the Edo and/or earlier times still in original shiratogi polish would be polished out in hadori now...even if there is little to see?

I also Know that elecric light played a big part in the polishing changes from about 1880s on, but I don't agree that it is the reason hadori came about...to me, the Honami, one of the relatively few polishers still existing after heitorei in 1876 developed the hadori as a private "product" to strengthen their economic condition...sure the elecric bulb played a part and it did spread, but IMHO it is not really a product of pre-Meiji era but rather a business development starting in a precise family as a "new idea".

 

Chris, you have covered so much...thank you. Yes, I base my sashikomi preference on tradition of the period of the swords I admire, and yes, it is "better" aesthetically IN RELATION to the period of my sword interest and, as the pics and "natural" sight suggest, their technical standard in both hamon and hada fit precisely as for the "intended" finish of their maker...this my preference.

 

I only have (now) one koto and 8 Showa swords to 1945. Previously, I have had virtually all periods, koto, shinto, shinshinto and some have been very good. Over time I have let them go because as you both have said, the periods of sword use had changed and the appreciation of swords as sword/art had changed, leaving me to decide what I want to collect and why.

I chose swords that were made as swords for actual use for war...such as koto and Meiji-Showa to 1945.

Very few koto have survived into modern times in original period polish. Most Meiji-Showa to 1945 swords have survived in their original polish which is sashikomi although some of mine are in 1943-1944 hadori polish. I can't see any marked improvement of revealing characteristics in their hadori polish over sashikomi, even when viewed correctly. As is seen in many modern hadori polishes on one of my hadori blades the "peaks" are showing above the line of the hadori polish. Normally I could not tolerate this, but in this case, because it is original to the sword it will be "enjoyed" as is. This "peaks showing" thing cannot be just poor wartime polish as it is still being done.

 

Chris I think the flies are circling this dead horse again as it all comes back to my period preference...I will not be collecting shinsakuto as they are outside of my period/purpose of collecting, nor shinto, shinshinto either unless they are in WWII mounts (the only evidence they were ever used by a soldier). I am unlikely to buy one of my preferred period sword if it is in the modern hadori polish and if any required a re-polish I would do them in the the appropriate pre-1954 polish or not at all. As to "tradition" being in the Japanese sense always to iimprove and inovate, well that is well said...it is their tradition we should respect, not mine (as you say), but in terms of collecting, it is not necessarily true that we need to follow their tradition exactly, in all things...really, that argument means we can only collect nihonto if we prefer what they prefer and despise what they despise...that is just intellectual slavery IMHO...like collecting art in the west, but only what the critics say is art. There is room for personal preference in nihonto and there is room for debate on the relative merits of polishes... this is illustrated by the comments on sashikomi vs hadori by Nakahara...a Japanese nihonto scholar!

 

In terms of modern hadori enhancing hataraki, hada etc to the maximum degree I do agree that for the reasons you gave there is no stopping it in modern Japan among smiths and polishers and collectors, but I would like to see restraint in the re-polishing of original examples of old polish, and while you are correct that much becomes visible, for me, the whole original essence is the prime attraction.

I hope I live long enough to greet all the Japanese togishi of the future who come to my door seeking to view the only original pre 1954 polishes visible in the world so they can re-learn the "real" meaning of dentoteki na sashikomi polish :lol:

 

Although they are just photos Chris, I do think they illustrate clearly the sashikomi - hadori difference (for details of enhancment we need to all meet up in a room somewhere and have them in-hand to discuss them). The pics also confirm that "someone" thinks tradition had a place in polish and for that reason preserved the "essence" of the original sashikomi polish...I wonder if it was the decision of one of the emminent togishi that took on the job?

I hope I have responded to everything,

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Chris, you have covered so much...thank you. Yes, I base my sashikomi preference on tradition of the period of the swords I admire, and yes, it is "better" aesthetically IN RELATION to the period of my sword interest and, as the pics and "natural" sight suggest, their technical standard in both hamon and hada fit precisely as for the "intended" finish of their maker...this my preference.

 

 

Do you really know what the intended finish is of the maker George? WWII era swords for the military, at least those made by the RJT, were often collected in bulk by the military then turned over to be polished without input from the smiths. The emphasis was on efficiency and turn around with most polishing done by a committee of amateurs under the supervision, at best, of professional polishers. Let's not forget these swords were made as weapons first, the "art sword" thing came afterwards.

 

You are not seeing the "dentoteki na sashikomi polish" in 99% of wwII blades, you are seeing a low grade, usually amateur job, done in haste. To be blunt, these WWII era polishes are to polishing what western steel, abura yaki showa-to are to swords....I don't mean to be argumentative, just trying to be realistic.

 

The reason you see no improvement over sashi-komi in your hadori polished wwII blades is because the hadori polishes are poorly done as well!

 

I have seen thousands of WWII era swords and the only ones that had an original polish comparable to today's standards were those made to special order or for contests and even then, we are talking a handful at best. Polishers were simply stressed to the limit to get work out for the military. They didn't have the time to do their best work in most cases.

 

I see another argument in favor of sashi-komi here- that it is valued because it is original.....What it comes down to George is your desire to "preserve" the original, "as found" condition of the blade and polish, as any museum curator in the West would be want to do, regardless of it's utility, and at all costs. You have a belief that there is "value" in maintaining the last polish the blade received in Japan. We all place a value on different things I suppose, nothing wrong with that as long as we realize that the value in Japan (and in the mainstream) in a polish is not it's age, or it's type, or even if it is original to the creation of the blade. The only thing that matters is its quality- and that is judged by how well it brings out the beauty of the blade. By nearly all traditional standards, that is the purpose of a polish. If it doesn't do that, and I know from a lot of experience polishing WWII era blades that their original polishes "kill" most WWII era swords, you are letting the tail wag the dog. Looking at it another way, you are not placing the emphasis on preserving and appreciating the workmanship of the blade as a work of art- you are more concerned with preserving it in it's WWII trim as an "original" artifact. This is perhaps the crux of the issue and where your viewpoint diverges from that of what has traditionally been the practice in Japan where swords have been valued primarily for their beauty, not their "original paint" like a classic car might be....

 

""peaks showing" thing cannot be just poor wartime polish as it is still being done." That's because it is unavoidable in some blades and not considered poor polishing. Reread the Craft of the Japanese Sword by Kapp wherein they discuss polishing and use of hadori. This is explained in some detail.

 

I do not think you will find a modern professional polisher willing to polish a sword in the war era style. And I don't think they have much to learn or lament losing from the bulk of the utilitarian polishes done during the war.

 

A sashi-komi polish by a master of the art can be beautiful but let's not confuse that with what we see on WWII era swords.

 

Our primary vantage point of appreciation comes from two different perspectives; I look first and foremost for the craftsmanship in the blade. I believe you value the historical originality and context, and its preservation, foremost. Nothing wrong with that, we just have different takes.

 

Enjoyed the discussion....

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Hi Chris,

Excellent comments...you have covered everything pro and con in the polishes under discussion and in my attitude to them.

 

You are probably correct about the "pressure" on WWII polishers and the more bulk method of distribution and collection etc, and although I do regard sashikomi as the "smith's intended look" I realise that in WWII it was likely in many cases to not be as direct a liason between smith and polisher as in the earlier times I was mentioning...although I think that direct liason still occurred, for example, seeing the similarity of the foundation polish (not great) on my two blades by a Niigata RJT smith (one finished in sashikomi and one hadori), they were done by the same polisher, so at least in some cases a small forge had their own polisher (this seems to be supported by the RJT instructions that gave rules as to how the polishing was to be done, which suggests that polishers may have been as scattered as the smiths (not directly under army centralised control polishing swords in bundles). You are correct about my WWII hadori and the peaks showing also maybe being pressure of wartime polishing workload, but I think it is equally likely that it was the complexity of the hamon and they "cut a corner". As these "peaks" it are still done today it must be a feature? of hadori and to me is "ugly" and "unnatural" to the true hamon. It is IMHO a feature that shows the down side of hadori.

 

You have outlined the "crux" of the manner of my collecting and my "western museum trained" approach to nihonto. It is all true :D I am that man. For me, I collect these swords precisely for all those reasons, and I will not change any aspect of them, unless I have a good sword that has deteriorated and MUST be restored, and then I will attempt to get as close as possible to its original WWII polish.

I do hope I am not too deluded a person and I know I am out of step with the majority here and certainly with those in Japan, but I cannot embrace changing all these blades to hadori ...even for the most logical reasons you give. I suppose at best, I am a "niche" collector (maybe I'm the Mayor of Crazy Town ? :lol: ). For me the preservation of what "is" is the most important thing...and I am glad there are still a few of us left (like the polisher of BM #79). As you say this is my personal approach to nihonto...it is what I like...I will continue on "down" (that should be "up") my personal road.

I enjoyed this discussion Chris, and all,...I hope it has been of benefit to members.

regards,

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