sashikomi/hadori

[george trotter]

Very good comments gentlemen, it is much appreciated to know how you purchse from a distance...it is more trust and experience that direct appraisal. You certainly illustrate the highest standards of appreciation and collecting of swords.

I see you prefer kesho...I prefer sashikomi...I do understand however that these polishes belong to 2 different periods of time ...history time to 1945 and art time after 1954...I do not collect from art time, so for me the correct polish is sashikomi.

 

Kunitaro san touches on the comment I made about preserving examples of original "period" polishes (or not?). May I make my comments in reply...I speak partly as a former museum professional...and partly my opinion. This raised the question of what is a Japanese sword - artefact or art? (I answer in italics)

I think most of high quality swords (above Juyo) have Kesho (Hadori) polish.

 

Yes, I think that most are now kesho. I think nearly all have post WWII kesho polish now. From an historic perspective if a sword is in good clean original old polish, I think it is not the correct thing to remove the original polish. This is artistic expression, not historic preservation.

 

Is it only fashion ?

 

yes, it is the current fashion since 1954 IMHO and it has its followers. In this sense, sashikomi can be said to have been a previous fashion (I am one of the followers :D ). In this situation the pre-1945 swords are artefacts and the post 1954 swords are art. Historic protection should apply to the pre 1945 and artistic expression should apply to the post 1954. To alter the historic sword to comply with the current art is incorrect attitude IMP&PO (in my professional & personal opinion).

 

If Sashikomi polish is better ( to see all activities ), why not it become less popular than Kesho polish in Japan ?

 

I can't say that sashikomi is "better", except that only kesho is designed "draw" the hamon and can be used to hide flaws where sashikomi shows more of what is the true blade/hamon (maybe not as good as kesho, but it is "honest"). I think sashikomi is less popular because kesho is adopted as the "art polish" of today and for post-war collectors it is normal...but there must still be some older Japanese collectors who keep their swords in original sashikomi polish? or maybe only in secret? (himitsu de).

 

If it is personal choice, most of high quality sword collectors order Kesho polish in Japan, why ?

 

That is difficult to understand for me. It is confusing to me whether they consider swords as artefacts or art...to me, swords after 1954 are art, so kesho is correct, but to them maybe all swords, from all periods are art ? If I look at this in my own professional (museum) and personal opinion I say this...Swords made after 1954 should be in the post-war kesho polish as this is "current" artistic perception, but swords polished before 1945 that are still in good condition should not be re-polished out of their correct artistic period polish into the artistic perception of today. In my younger days I saw many photographs of important old swords. They had sashikomi polish which was "normal" up to 1945. When I saw the same swords in museums in Japan after 1980 I saw they were in kesho. I could not recognise them...so different. It is obvious that the owners had them re-polished...are they now the same swords?

 

 

This raises (for me) the question of polishing old swords with a new polish.

I know we can not allow rust and damage to occur to a blade so if it has occurred it must be re-polished, but can I ask:

What should we do with a sword that still had an intact polish from say, 1650, or maybe 1550, or maybe 1350? - should such a valuable historic item be altered to remove the polish of the past to replace it with a polish that is acceptable to today's collector/critic.

 

A difficult subject...I just hope that sashikomi is not lost.

[cabowen]

Many believe, including myself, that because a hadori polish allows one to better appreciate the hada as well as the hamon, that it is an improvement over sashikomi. The fact that hadori has become the overwhelming choice in Japan, at least it seems to me, after 50 or more years, it can no longer be called simply a "fade" or "fashion" but an evolutionary step. People are free to get whatever polish they want and most get hadori. There is indeed a reason: it brings out all that the smith put into the sword.

 

I"m sorry George, but I just can't see keeping an old sword in sashikomi simply because that it what the prior polish was. If hadori had been fully developed 50 years earlier there is little doubt we wouldn't hardly see a sashikomi polish on an old sword. I am more about seeing a sword and the workmanship in it in the clearest manner possible. I have just had too many gendaito poo-pooed in original sashi-komi, only to have them return as stunners in hadori with the jigane clear and distinct. Swords in Japan have always been polished as required using the appropriate level and type of polish for the blade at the time.

 

But I know where you are coming from....your museum background and training runs deep!

[george trotter]

Your comments are very reasonable Chris. There is much in what you say about hadori and its preference today...I think your comment of evolution along the way of polishing is very appropriate.

And you are no doubt correct, that maybe my mind has been too strongly shaped by my history training and the fact that I started collecting in "the golden age" :D

It is a difficult thing for me to think that someone can take a sword in good original polish (maybe 200 years old) and change it.

Maybe the outcome of this discussion is that when time and taste marches on... some of us will always remain behind

Thanks to all,

[cabowen]

Hahaa, can I call you Don Q???? :lol:

 

Actually George,swords are usually polished only when necessary. That is either when the old polish is shot from corrosion or the new polish is crap (like when done by an amateur) and must be redone.

 

Fear not, I don't know of any 200 year old polishes being redone on a whim!

 

And thanks for some good discussion.

[Grey Doffin]

Not to lead this thread astray but 200 year old polishes are being redone on a whim. In Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords, Nobuo Nakahara rails against polishers who repolish swords that don't need a polish so they can enter polishing contests. Pity that it happens.

Grey

[george trotter]

Oh yes, I checked, you are right Grey (pp. 83-87) .

I had forgotten that Nakahara was so worried about hadori and the reasons it was being used, thanks for reminding me.

I am all fired up again ...it is encouraging that there are some Japanese who see this hadori as wrong for historic swords (no wonder Nakahara is criticised in certain circles).

If modern dealers/polishers do such a thing as push hadori for their commercial advantage, against a cooler historical balanced reason not to do it, then that shows it is a questionable practise doesn't it? If their customers, the new generation of collectors, merely accept this as right, against the historic reason of why a sword is preserved in the first place, then that shows a faulty "fad driven" attitude doesn't it? I mean, who would willingly destroy an old historically correct polish?...these collectors don't really understand history IMP & PO.

Grrr...(see, I was right all along...)

[cabowen]

polishes aren't bad, people are.....

[runagmc]

Only problem with that is, polishers are people too...

[Bazza]

Not raised so far is that the nature of the sword leads to the best type of polish, according to past discussions. However, having been there and done that for 50 years I lean to a polish that brings out the best in a blade, but having said that I'm still confused. OK, let me hit it. What is the primary determinant of "What makes a Japanese sword a Nihonto?". Surely it is the hamon, for a sword with a glorious hamon (suguba or midareba) is a delight to see. A sword with a glorious hada and NO HAMON is - what?? A lump of fancy steel! So it seems to me the issue comes down to this - if the hamon is important to what makes a Nihonto a Nihonto then sashikomi is the 'way'. However, if we like hada then kesho is the 'way'. Is there no in between??? I don't pretend to have any certain knowledge here and I defer to the vast experience of Chris Bowen, George Trotter, Kunitaro san, Morita san and other luminaries, but for this small-time collector and for those swords I have had polished, overall I prefer sashikomi as it espresses the glory of the hamon, the quintessential feature of Nihonto.

 

I have a sword that was polished in "pure" sashikomi - it is brilliant to the easily seen tiniest strand of nie whisker that might otherwise have been difficult to see in kesho. The trouble is, and a continuing "niggle", is that the hada is less distinct, almost invisible in fact, compared to the before "old" polish. The hamon, whilst wishy-washy and hard to see before polish, is now crystal clear (no pun intended). So I'm not really sure if I should be disappointed or rejoicing, because the new polish has left a sword that is clearly a vast improvement on what went before condition-wise, and I'm certainly very happy with it, BUT - I lament for the diminished hada.

 

One can go on and on, as we have done here and continue to do, but I have enjoyed this discussion immensely. Thank you all.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

[cabowen]

 

What is the primary determinant of "What makes a Japanese sword a Nihonto?". Surely it is the hamon, for a sword with a glorious hamon (suguba or midareba) is a delight to see. A sword with a glorious hada and NO HAMON is - what?? A lump of fancy steel! So it seems to me the issue comes down to this - if the hamon is important to what makes a Nihonto a Nihonto then sashikomi is the 'way'. However, if we like hada then kesho is the 'way'. Is there no in between???

 

 

I thought I had made this point clear, but it seems it still hasn't reached all corners...let me say it once again, in bold:

A properly done hadori/kesho polish does not diminish, nor cover detail, in the hamon, when viewed properly.

 

As Franco has mentioned, one needs to view properly. Once the method is adopted, all the detail is there to see.

[watsonmil]

Dear All,

My bias for sahikomi verses hadori polish is well documented. There is yet another reason for seeing a preponderance of hadori polishes. I believe it is not only a fad, ... but also that the collector has been brain-washed to accept hadori as the polish mostly acceptable. " If one tells a lie often enough it becomes the truth " ( curtoesy of Joseph Goebbels ).

 

It also comes down to personal preference, ... however there is one more reason why the hadori polish is so predominant, .. and that is :

 

" Why would a polisher repolish a blade that was in sashi-komi with a kesho finish? That is a reasonable question. It seems in fact I asked that very question here recently and I will give you the answer I received: "because it was deemed the best finish for the blade at the time". Maybe that satisfies you but it left me wanting....I suspect there are several possibilities, ranging from it is what the customer wanted to the simple fact that there are very few polishers around today that can competently do a traditional sashi-komi polish. I know that to be true because I asked many polishers in Japan if they do sashi-komi and they all told me the same thing- few still can.... "

 

These words spoken by our none other than ... Chris Bowen

 

One of those rare occasions where both Chris and I can agree !

... Ron Watson

[cabowen]

Dear All,

My bias for sahikomi verses hadori polish is well documented. There is yet another reason for seeing a preponderance of hadori polishes. I believe it is not only a fad, ... but also that the collector has been brain-washed to accept hadori as the polish mostly acceptable. " If one tells a lie often enough it becomes the truth " ( curtoesy of Joseph Goebbels ).

 

It also comes down to personal preference, ... however there is one more reason why the hadori polish is so predominant, .. and that is :

 

" Why would a polisher repolish a blade that was in sashi-komi with a kesho finish? That is a reasonable question. It seems in fact I asked that very question here recently and I will give you the answer I received: "because it was deemed the best finish for the blade at the time". Maybe that satisfies you but it left me wanting....I suspect there are several possibilities, ranging from it is what the customer wanted to the simple fact that there are very few polishers around today that can competently do a traditional sashi-komi polish. I know that to be true because I asked many polishers in Japan if they do sashi-komi and they all told me the same thing- few still can.... "

 

These words spoken by our none other than ... Chris Bowen

 

One of those rare occasions where both Chris and I can agree !

... Ron Watson

 

Yes we know which you prefer Ron, and perhaps in your case you have correctly called it a bias.

 

To say that I, as well as the majority of the participants in the sword community, including most of the recognized experts, have somehow had our common sense, not to mention our faculties, removed through some sort of "brainwashing" is well, just plain dumb. Your grand conspiracy theory is as insulting as it is baseless. All are free to choose, and the majority choice of those in the mainstream of the community, has clearly been made. I have given my reasons which can be demonstrated, and have a basis in fact. I deal in facts, not fancies of the imagination.

 

Yes, it is true that traditional sashikomi polish is hard to find these days and as it turns out, there is a reason. Why do you think that is? Here's a hint: for the same reason you can't walk into your local electronics shop and buy an 8 track cassette player. But no doubt you stocked up when the rest of world was brainwashed into believing there was an improved technology.

[george trotter]

I suppose it will always be the case that there are two ways to go....continue to prefer and purchase hadori polished blades...or...continue to prefer and purchase sashikomi blades while there are still some around...we cannot change another's tastes, but we can try to understand them, and in fact this post was to prompt discussion on how, what, why people like, prefer, purchase hadori blades and quite a lot of info has come out.

I prefer the sashikomi for the reasons I have given...but, as I have 2 WWII hadori blades, done IMHO as a reasonable compromise for a complex hamon and lack of time in WWII, I am not writing off hadori in ALL circumstances. While I don't admire my hadori polishes for the reasons I have given, I do feel there is a place for it in some cases and in fact, if you think about it, mine are now rare pre 1945 examples of it, so they are now historical ...although I am sure hadori has improved greatly since WWII.

 

One very simple way I satisfy my taste in this is to seek out only sashikomi blades.

In fact, as mentioned, because of my preference for Meiji-Taisho-Showa (to 1945) blades I seek these out in as perfect a sashikomi polish as possible. This satisfies my asthetic taste (as faulty as it is :D ) and my historic taste.

I predict that one day, long after my passing, swords like mine will form the basis of study for a new nostalgic rennaissance revival of trying to regain the lost art of sashikomi polish.

Lots of fun...

[Bruno]

Hello,

 

If nowadays hadori is what it is done in Japan, can one expect with the time that Japanese polishers will loose their skills in sashikomi polish?

 

Thanks

[george trotter]

Hi Bruno,

yes, that is true...it is already happening...

Regards,

Hope all is well in le belle France.

[Dick Tait]

I may have to have my new Tanto polished one side Hadori and one side Sashikomi just to settle this argument!!! :D

[watsonmil]

Dear All,

" Once there was a watch. It had a minute hand and an hour hand, and one was longer than the other. Most people thought it worked just fine. Then someone invented the digital watch. This meant that whenever daylight saving time came or went, you had to devote much time to fooling around with digital buttons or, as I do leave things as they are and add or subtract an hour in your head. This too is called progress. "

 

" Once there was a rule, and most people respected it. The rule was ... " If it ain't broke, don't fix it. " ... Then someone decided the rule was silly, and all sorts of things that worked perfectly well were fixed so they didn't work so well anymore. This is now called progress ( improved technology ). It used to be called STUPIDITY. "

 

Quoted from the Washington Post Magazine ... author Richard Cohen

 

... Ron Watson

 

PS. I skipped the 8 track cassett player, ... and continued playing vinyl, ... saved a lot of money :D

[nagamaki - Franco]

Quite simply as one polisher put it, why bring out the detail in only half the sword when it is possible to display all of the detail of the swordsmith's best work all at the same time, in speaking of a hadori polish. In fact this polisher felt it was his obligation to do so.

 

Also, from a personal perspective one of the great ideals that comes out of "samurai" is the idea of impermanence, and yet we see so much Westernism inserted here into the conversation of permanence, tsk, tsk.

 

P.S. Please also don't misunderstand, this polisher on more than one occassion has recommended not polishing a sword in order to preserve the work of a previous polisher.

[Brian]

Well...we have a qualified polisher on board occasionally.. Andrew Ickeringill.

Why doesn't someone email him and ask his opinion of the debate? And let's try and be a little less "vehement" in our opinions?

 

Brian

[cabowen]

Again, each are entitled to their own choice. I have presented mine along with the rationale that supports it. I won't spend further time arguing with those that won't or can't debate the actual merits but rather persist in defending their choice with fairy tales of conspiracy lifted from their flat earther's handbook or with emotional appeals to some nebulous "better traditional" past.

 

Until discussion can focus on facts, further meaningful discussion is bound to be counterproductive at best.

[Stephen]

Silly Wabbits, Tricks are for Kids. Ok which came first egg or swords with out either polish?

[george trotter]

Oh dear....I can see some of Guido's dog-fight pics appearing here any minute now :lol:

 

I suppose the proving of each position is not possible on line as we all need to be in a room together, with lights, and have swords in hand to debate the finer points of hadori or sashikomi finish.

As most of us have had both polishes in hand at times, I think the relative quality of each finish is what has confirmed each of us in our present view.

Chris has seen many more of both types than me I am sure, as have many others, so their experience carries weight.

For me, my experience in the meaning of history and preservation is what has formed my position.

 

As the OP, can I just say that I was curious about 3 things:

first... how people buy from a distance when the sword is in hadori in terms of being able to make a "rough" hunch assessment. This has been replied to by those who do it.

I also was curious (alarmed really) that hadori was being done on blades still in old original polish from past ages. I am not talking about them being in need of restoration due to damage/deterioration, but as a desire to bring them up to "modern" perception of good polish. This was stated to be true, but with exceptions...It is refreshing that Nakahara and some togishi (Ron Watson's togishi quote) show that some still desire to preserve the original polish if it is not damaged.

Thirdly, I was concerned that sashikomi skills and knowledge was dying out...it is.

 

I confess that a motive behind my post was to perhaps influence members to not dismiss sashikomi as inferior...I hoped I might inspire some to re-examine sashikomi in terms of their swords...preserve it if it is still in good condition.

I assure you all my motives were discussion of, and concern for, nihonto (as I see it). Nothing said so far will change me from my position, but I do now see more clearly the reasons some are hadori collectors.

I am sure that even though we will continue to disagree, we can still live together.

Regards,

[Brian]

I find it amusing that people will endlessly debate something that can't possibly have a conclusion either way.

We all say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion..but in practice, that seldom comes through.

 

Brian

[kunitaro]

I was a little too slow to post something on this Topic

because,i was a bit hesitated to speak out about modern sashikomi polishing. so I was talking with an old master polisher who knows about real sashikomi polish, I was asking a lot of question and confirming answers,

 

All of Sashikomi polished blades which we see today are not real sashikomi polish, we can say It is kind of "Instant Sashikomi style".

They are used nitric acid, make it looks like old Sashikomi,

(cheap kesho polish as well)

 

and I think that Most of members have never seen a blade with real old sashikomi polish.

I have seen a few in my life. one was Bizen kagemitsu (Kokuho) at the owner's house. second was Bizen Mitsutada (Ju-bun) and Nagamitsu (Ju-bun) at Takayama Takeshi's house (son in law of Honma Kunzan).

They are not Hadori, so it looks like modern sashikomi in a way, but, it is completely different...

Jitetsu is kind of transparent dark, and Hamon is with some colors, so, it is almost 3D jitetsu and hamon. not flashy, but, you can see real original activities, I can not explain with my poor English.

It become like this through a couple of hundred years of proper maintenance.

Those swords have been in experts hands through all history.

it is showing How the sword should be.... but, they are very very rare...

 

I asked about this matter to the old master polisher,

He calls those polish " Gunto-togi" or "San(acid)-togi".

It was used for Gunto or cheap sword for quick job.

1945-1950. a lot of sword with quick polish were sold to GI...etc.

 

around 1985, He got a request to send a polisher to France.

so, He sent one of his student mr.Kurokawa. (he was 27 at that time, now he is 54 years old), He lived in one of French dealer's house (for 3 years).

When he started to polish sword in France, he found out most of clients want "Gunto acid polish" they were calling "Sashikomi",,,,, so, the student polisher was calling his master, so, the master told him that polish only not important blade,,,,,

He said that he knew this problem since 30 years ago...

 

I asked him why no more Sashikomi ?

He said that at first, Sashikomi polish will take double time, than kanahada-nugui style, (using carbon/iron oxide)

so, the polishing cost will be double,

and

Fresh polish of Sashikomi is not really beautiful, very dull compare to Kesho polish,

Need proper Teire(maintenance) and It will take a long time (100years or more) to become excellent condition.

 

After Meiji period,,,

non-samurai don't want to pay double amount of money for after 100 years condition, they can not see the best condition in his life time....haha,

He also said that The master (kesho) polish blade will become good sashikomi-polish after 100 years with proper maintenance.

but, Acid polish will not be stay good condition for a long time. without good care, it will be damaged by acid..

 

I think that is one of reason why we don't see modern Sashikomi polish in high quality important swords.

Not many, but some of Old important polish are preserved in the good hand still today.

 

He was a (living in) student of Hirai Matsuba, a son of Hirai Chiba. a brother of Honnami Nisshu.

He is one of last masters who have 口伝/Ko-den (oral instruction) from Master from Meiji - Edo period.

 

However, I worry maybe my comment will upset some people...

I will be able to continue asking question for him.

if anybody have (serious) question, welcome.

or If somebody really want real Sashikomi polish, we can arrange it as well !

 

Best kunitaro

[John A Stuart]

Any more information about this santogi I would really like to hear about. I know there have been short cuts used, but, was not aware of this acid technique being used when having my sword polished sashikomi style. It may have modified my decision. John

[Veli]

Kunitaro san, thank you very much for the eye-opening expert comment!

 

What I have understood earlier with my almost nonexisting knowledge about polishing, is that what people call Sashikomi polish does utilize jizuya/hazuya and kanahada nugui, but the distinct final outlining of the Hamon pattern with hadori is left undone. The use of nitric acid sounds horrible! So is there a mistake with terminology, and the real sashikomi does not utilize kanahada nugui at all?

 

BR, Veli

[Brian]

I think one of the sword books mentions that a very dilute acid solution is used with the final stones in many cases. I expect this is a very diluted solution, and probably helps the contrast.

I don't condone the practice, just want to clarify that we are not talking about a full acid etch here. I don't think it needs too much explanation...most of us know not to use acid on Nihonto. But yes...it is used in Japan and has been for generations. Might be Facts and Fundementals that speaks about this?

 

Brian

[kunitaro]

Antonym of Sashikomi is not Hadori,

Sashikomi vs Kanahada-nugui.

Basically, it is used powder of Tsushima stone, which is almost Uchiko powder for make Jitetsu darker.

Another name of sashikomi-togi is called "Tsushima-togi"

for this method, you need to do Uchigumori much more. and take long time to make jitetsu darker,

and make Ha brighter with Hazuya only, so, Jitetsu is less darker and Ha is less whiter than modern polish.

 

Kanahada-nugui, using carbon/iron oxide to make Ji darker, used occasionally in Edo, but, as a technique was found by Honnami Heijuro (there is wood print of him in my book "Kurihara Nobuhide/the last master sword smith" :D ) and established by Honnami Ringa" in Late Edo to Meiji period, and Honnami Koson, Hirai Chiba are famous masters as well.

By using carbon oxide on Ji, makes much darker fast and also protect the steel as well, and use Hazuya to make Ha whiter, it makes good contrast of Ji and Ha, and bring up both Ji and Ha activities well.

 

Modern instant Sashikomi is that, after Kanahada nugui, put nitric acid aqueous solution on Ha, and use Hazuya, and again, acid water, and Hazuya again, till good balance. and no need Hadori, so, the job of Ha will be done within one day ! very quick !

but, when you use Uchiko for maintenance, Ji become less dark and Ha become dull, and still some acid remain in steel.

Real Sashikomi is opposite, use uchiko, Ji become darker, and Ha become brighter,,,,

 

Also, the master polisher told me one story that, He had a client order old Sashikomi, so he did it, but, the client wanted too see good condition form quickly, so, he did a lot of Uchiko, few hours everyday ! for a few years, then,,, all polish was ruined

He said, quick job never work, need proper maintenance every 3 month, take 100 years...

no short cut....

 

"差し込み研ぎとは、日本刀研磨における仕上げ方法の一つである。対馬研ぎとも呼ばれる。対馬砥の粉末を用いて、地鉄に黒味を帯びさせ、刃を際立たせる。江戸時代に始まり今日にいたるも、明治期に本阿彌林雅が考案したと言われる「金肌拭い」が現在の主流である。金肌拭い自体は江戸時代からあったと伝えられているが、体系的に整理したのは本阿彌林雅であろう。"

[Veli]

Wow, I may slowly start to understand, thank you so much

 

Veli

[runagmc]

Hi Kunitaro san, I am wondering what your poisher friend would call the polish on the sword George first posted. I think we have all been lead to believe this is sashikomi. Here is the pic I'm talking about,

We have been lead to believe this is done with a different nugui called jitekko

(or with nugui made from tsushima stone or narutaki stone) , and then without whitening of hamon with hazuya, as in hadori... Here is a site which talks about this as sashikomi, http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/togi,process.html

 

So, do you think your friend would disagree and say this isn't true sashikomi?