Scientific testing for Nihonto

[Wang C]

Hi,

 

Long time collector and lurker. Seems that the NBTHK are in the news again. I am very interested to see what happens when the dust clears this time.

 

I would like to hear others with opinions about scientific testing on nihonto. Accurate testing is available in many other collecting fields such as ceramice, painting , sculpture, jewellery etc. Nihonto can also be tested for construction and composition easily and cheaply. If fact nihonto are uniquely suitable for this testing. So why arn't we using the science available to us??

 

Imagine a different world...

You have a very nice sword that you are considering sending to Japan for polish, papers , the whole deal. Before you decide to spend the money you send it for Atomic Mass Spectrometry testing. The lastes test is called (wait for it) Laser Ablation Inductively-coupled Plasma Atomic Emission Spectrometry. It involves a laser giving your sword a little blast (on the mune behind the habaki would be a good spot). The laser leaves the tinniest of dots the size of a pin prick and only a few microns deep, no big deal for a polisher to remove. From the vapor formed the test can analise the chemical composition of your sword. Hey, first thing you notice is no borax, this means it is not shinto or later. You excitedly compare the results to the chart of historically dependable swords already tested. Wow, you discover that your sword is from the Kamakura period and tallies with sword steels known to be used in the Bizen provence. This combined with your kantei skills allows you to make that decision to invest in the polish. Oh, bonus, you have the sword re-tested when it comes back to make sure it is the same blade! Hey the technology is already here, we just arn't using it

 

Now image this...

You are offered the big sword with the big price tag and you are in love. Before you spend the big bucks you have the sword Xray Flourencence tested. This test is like a super Xray that allows you to see everything in the structure of the steel. You see past the heavy keisho polish and see this funny area on the hamon. If fact it looks like a Tig weld spot, maybe to repair a hagiri. You suspect the sword has been re-tempered to hide the weld halo. Wait a minute, you can clearly see that a signature has been removed and a new one put over the top. You politely pass on this sword. XRF testing can easily spot umegane, ware and fukure that haven't surfaced, welded on tangs, changes in metal. You may even be able to read rusted out meis. But do you think anyone in this world selling you the big sword is going to let you test it?

 

Before you think this is all just fantasy, the same test was used on the priceless "Spear of Destiny" which is in the Hofburg Museum in Vienna. This is the famous relic that susposely pieced the side of Christ. The test showed it to be celtic from the 6th or 7th century by comparison with known burial examples in the British museum.

 

The problem is that many people have a vested interst in the status quo.

Scientific testing could cause the nihonto world to explode, very dangerous talk in some circles. Prices would crash, worse still image if swords in some Japanese museums were proven to be fakes! But in the end it is going to happen, and it will not be the Japanese sword groups that instigate it. Change will need to come from the bottom up, from the collectors.

 

Now what has all this got to do with the glut of Juyo comming out of Japan and the news about the NBTHK suspending papers for relatives of board members? Think about it...

 

Wang

[Bungo]

any idea as to the cost of the tests ?

Any lab doing it ?

 

Milt THE ronin

[Brian]

Wang,

 

Great post, and very thought provoking. This kind of scientific testing is already happening in other aspects of the art world, so I guess it is entirely reasonable to think it may oneday become the norm in Nihonto collecting.

I think you would have to have good contacts and finances to have access to these tests, but as time goes by, this will change.

Can you imagine in 100 years..where each sword will come with NBTHK and laboratory papers? :D

 

Brian

[David Flynn]

If one is going to sbmit a sword for juyo Maybe already a worthwile investment.

David

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Long time collector and lurker. ...OMISSIS...Change will need to come from the bottom up, from the collectors.

 

I think it's a great idea and strongly suggest you to shake the community being the first in providing the full list of results of the above mentioned tests on the next blade you'll sell. Let us know time and money involved,

as well as availability of the laboratories for future references and comparisons.

[Wang C]

Hello again,

 

Thank you for your interest and encouragement. I have been researching these test for some time. The Atomic Mass Spectrometry test can be done for around $300, but a small sample is needed. It only needs to be a small shaving (from the mune of the nakago would be easiest), not a great problem for swords that are already o-suriage. As yet I have no local contact for the Laser version of this test. Discussions I have had involve setting up a special rig and chamber to handle nihonto, difficult but entirely possible. The real problem is assembling reference data from known swords, there was some testing carried out in Japan in the 60's which would make a good starting point, but many more samples are needed. I have been collecting my own samples for some time , as has a friend of mine, it will be a big project. I figure that without historical known swords to test it will take hundreds of samples to start to discern conclusive data. Also the testing of the samples needs to be funded. My friend that always loves a conspiracy theory believes that the Japanese already have this data, but are not going to share it since it is not in their interests.

 

As for the Xray Flourescence tests it is commonly available and I will be conducting my own experiments with swords in my collection. This is a great test for perspective big sword buyers. Actually I'm not a big ticket sword buyer and the best blades in my collection have not gone to Japan. Sorry I have heard too many first hand horror stories of stolen and missing swords in transit to and from Japan. Note I said first hand , not hear say.

 

Wang

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

My friend that always loves a conspiracy theory believes that the Japanese already have this data, but are not going to share it since it is not in their interests.

 

This explain to me some things... Where is your friend from ?

[Nobody]

Hi Wang,

 

Thank you for an interesting proposal. I do not know well about those technologies, but I have a question.

 

You suggest two types of test, Ablation Inductively-coupled Plasma Atomic Emission Spectrometry and x-ray fluorescence (XRF). As far as I know, XRF test is a nondestructive inspection which can analyze the chemical compositon of given material such as the blade. Why do you also suggest Ablation Inductively-coupled Plasma Atomic Emission Spectrometry which is a destructive inspection to analyze the composition?

I am afraid that XRF is confused with X-ray inspection (Radiographic Testing).

 

I apologize if I made a big mistake.

[Wang C]

Hello Koichi,

 

Nice to hear from someone from Japan on this topic. Have you conducted any tests yourself? I understand that a Mr. Koichi Tanaka from Shimadzu Corp. in Japan won a Nobel prize for chemistry working in this field, maybe we can contact him for advice? Yes you may well be correct that only the XRF test is required to achieve the data. In fact I have only used AMS testing of small samples myself in relation to my work. I am not an expert or scientist in this field. I did not consider looking at the question from that angle. Now I am inspired to look further into the XRF test and will inform the board of my progress. I will also research Radiographic testing, costs and availability.

 

Wang

[Ed Harbulak]

Many of the major museum as well as university chemistry departments have XRF equipment. It might only be necessary to make contact with someone in the chemistry department of your local university to have this kind of test done. They might even take an interest in the project and do it for free. Might make a good research project for some graduate student. In addition, many companies in the metals industry (e.g., some companies doing electroplating) also have XRF equipment and would probably not charge much to run an analysis. Sounds like an interesting approach to examining nihonto.

Ed Harbulak

[Minister Amos]

Let's hope that whatever happens, that it stays the realm of the appreciative and respectful collector rather than the speculator.

 

It seems that once speculators become involved, the item is sonically sealed and lost forever to the collector.

 

Just think about coins and the grading system that was made possible by this process.

[kusunokimasahige]

Interesting thought.... but still if you want the NTBHK's opinion on who made it or its value you still are in the realm of appreciation, rather than science...

 

I myself normally step into my time machine, visit ancient Japan, and go looking for the smith who apparently signed the sword.. when i find him i ask in my best classical Japanese wether he made it or not, and wether or not he wants to give me some proof in writing.

 

Afterwards I travel to present day Japan, and go to the spot where the specific smith has left me his letter of appreciation, in a sealed container. I dig it up, or get it out of the cave or wherever we decided to hide it, and take the sword, and its papers to the NTBHK.

 

That normally does it... and since there is no kiri sutei gomen anymore, a negative appreciation regularly has no consequences for the appraiser....

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

would this story have anything to do with me being Dutch and living near Amsterdam? I wonder.......

 

KM

[David Flynn]

I think the point Wang is trying to make, is to take some, to most of the guess work out of Kantei. I believe this is a good idea. Most of us know of sword submitted for shinsa with one orginization, being bounced, then passing at another Orginization. This proposal has no intention of removing the sword as an artform. Beauty is Beauty! However knowing some of the how and when must be an advantage.

David

[kusunokimasahige]

I agree on the point that its better to date a sword by its alloy components...

ie carbon dating but then metallurgic! since carbon dating on forged items is out of the question of course.

 

anyway, koshirae(saya and hilt) could and should in my view be dated this way..

 

the smith's geographic location could maybe also be perceived by first setting up a system in which the various iron-ore locations in Japan are catalogued.

 

a scientific study would need to be done on the economics/ trading and transporting of this ore throughout Japan... his name (signing) of course will mostly be dependable on other crafts like appreciation, thus guesswork in some instances...

 

however, overall i like the scientific approach best!

 

KM