Update: Index of Japanese Swordsmiths

[hxv]

Ed,

 

Hoanh

[Mark]

I bought a set already, figure they are useful and support the author. I had no problem with the cost. But if this project goes forward I am sure I will buy an extra set or two, I try to have basic books to give as gifts to help newer collectors, or at least have them available so they can see what they are and how they can use them.

[Lance]

I haven't seen the poll yet, but I'd place an order for this edition of books as well. The higher quality print and hardcover as discussed sounds great, but if this doesn't go through I'll end up buying the other set evenyually.

I have a couple of Markus' books, and enjoy them very much, (Legends and Stories around the Japanese Sword was one of a group of books that helped me get through the power outages due to Hurricane Sandy)

Thanks to Adrian too, I hope this project is successful.

 

Regards,

Lance

[Dr Fox]

Brian

 

Is it an attempt to provide the same information, under another cover at a cheaper price?

Will there be a reduction in quality build and book size, justified, due to cost cutting?

 

My questions were directed, towards a comparison between the existing books, and the proposed project! Not at all a statement of "not being on side". Would I support the opportunity to purchase the books as proposed, at a reduced price? Yes! But I need to know at what cost and at what quality, should these fall short of what I felt is acceptable, then its a No! I would go the extra cost for the originals.

 

I dont envy all involved, there are hurdles that I cannot imagine, best of luck.

Denis.

[Brian]

Brian

Can some one explain what is the objective is here. I seem to find books by Marcus available to buy, so they are not an out of print item.

Is it an attempt to provide the same information, under another cover at a cheaper price?

Will there be a reduction in quality build and book size, justified, due to cost cutting?

Marcus comments in this topic the amount of sales he has made, and how low they are! That's not his fault, that's ours! His books are quality products, and demand a price that is probably totally justified.

We recently had a plea from a NMB member waxing lyrical on the support of living authors, and naming Marcus as the example.

Well why isn’t the thrust in that direction, lets support Marcus’s work and look after one of our own. If it's a price issue? Compared to the cost of blades and fittings there is no contest.

Denis

To clarify,

This isn't about price. And it is still Marcus' work..we are trying to get a higher quality print for collectors. The current version is either an ebook, or a soft cover Lulu set. We are trying to get a decent hard cover set going, on behalf of Marcus. Price isn't the main issue.

 

Brian

[Thierry BERNARD]

I'm not sure I understand exactly the purpose of this thread

you say it's not about price but in fact it is!

You already you can buy these book here (http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_id=734983) with good quality paper and hardcover.

You have decided the price for the set will be $100 without asking to Markus how much he want to sell these books, and how much he want for his royalties

I am confused, but perhaps I miss something

[Adrian]

Thierry, actually Markus was very clear about the fact that he supports either version. It's all in this topic, at this point I doubt that there are any questions left.

 

The exact amount of Markus' royalties will be determined after he chooses the technical details of this limited edition. As in paper quality, binding type and so on. Once we have 100 people interested I will mail him some paper samples and ask him to decide which one to use it. We will also discuss the price option for all the other technical parameters. We will then have to find a balance between leaving enough room for Markus' royalties (they need to be substantial IMO) and getting the best possible paper/binding/cover and so on. This will be his decision as he is the author.

 

I hope all is clear now.

 

The main quality issue is that any of the current available options (lulu.com or bd.de) are digital print (which is lower quality then offset). The goal here is to get at least 100 pre-orders and therefore be able to get offset print (much higher print quality).

[Thierry BERNARD]

CQFD (QED)

[Adrian]

I don't think you're following. Did you read the part about digital print (low quality) vs offset print (high quality)?

 

The thing that seems to puzzle many is that, in this case, the better quality ends up being cheaper when it comes to price per copy. What you guys need to understand is that the TOTAL COST of the project is determinant for the quality, not the price per copy.

 

100$x100 copies = 10.000$ for offset print

200$x25 copies = 5000$ for digital print

 

For 10.000$ we get offset print, for 5000$ (or even lower) we get digital print. I'm not sure how could I make this more clear.

[Brian]

Sorry Adrian, but for me it is not only about getting this mythical offset printing done, since I am fairly sure you will not meet any 100 book target.

You overestimate the market.

For me, it is about the fact that BOD.de is virtually unusable in German, cannot find these books when I search in English, and costs $340 for the set of 2 books plus shipping. I am not going to use a website that cannot be navigated in English and hasn't added the books or the author to the search function.

I am happy with all the digital prints I have seen. If an offfset one doesn't happen, I am confident there will be at least 35 people willing to pay up to $180 for the set, done professionally and cloth bound, with a decent markup for Marcus. If we need to investigate them being offset printed, I would like to explore the various options, printing companies and ways of distributing them. What country would they ship from and is the shipper a known person in the community?

 

Brian

[Guido]

Can some one explain what is the objective is here. I seem to find books by Marcus available to buy, so they are not an out of print item.

 

I bought Markus' books, hard cover, a few days after they were published, and am very happy with them. I paid about € 260.- (US $ 340.-), but would have paid even more. Of course I'd like to have them for free. Or, even better, he sends me signed copies, and pays me.

 

It's probably much cheaper to collect beer coasters instead of Nihontô.

[cabowen]

Can some one explain what is the objective is here. I seem to find books by Marcus available to buy, so they are not an out of print item.

 

 

It's all very simple: the main objective is to get a higher quality printing which, if enough people pre-order, may end up even cheaper than the current, lower quality offering.

[Markus]

For me, it is about the fact that BOD.de is virtually unusable in German, cannot find these books when I search in English, and costs $340 for the set of 2 books plus shipping. I am not going to use a website that cannot be navigated in English and hasn't added the books or the author to the search function.

 

That´s true. Well, I don´t want to more fuel to the fire but it is possible to get the hardcover version via amazon.de,

it works even from the US as I have been told by one of my customers. I.e. BoD prints and ships to amazon.de and

amazon.de to the buyer.

[Adrian]

Sorry Adrian, but for me it is not only about getting this mythical offset printing done, since I am fairly sure you will not meet any 100 book target.

You overestimate the market.

 

I understand that we have different opinions on this subject. The question here is simple and fair: do you want to give it a try and do a proper market research for the project that I'm proposing?

 

If an offfset one doesn't happen, I am confident there will be at least 35 people willing to pay up to $180 for the set, done professionally and cloth bound, with a decent markup for Marcus.

 

Sure, but do we agree that this should be the second option, to be pursued if the attempt to get offset print fails?

 

 

If we need to investigate them being offset printed, I would like to explore the various options, printing companies and ways of distributing them. What country would they ship from and is the shipper a known person in the community?

 

I have absolutelly nothing against investigating all the possible options to get the best quality and price possible for offset printing. Any member who knows a good printing company and wants to step in is welcomed (at least by me).

Once we figure this out we will also know which country the books would ship from.

 

My intention is to hire a shipping company for the distribution. This would add to the printing cost, of course, as already mentioned.

I don't think that any person who currently has a job could do this kind of task as volunteer and within a reasonable timeframe.

 

P.S. Yesterday and today I spoke with people I know from 4 printing companies in 3 countries (Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria). I guess it's better to stop now and see where this goes. (if anywhere)

[hxv]

Gentlemen,

 

I guess the discussion comes down to the following points:

 

Q. Are we doing something illegal?

A. Of course not, as Markus has stated that he has no exclusive agreement with the printing companies currently distributing his books.

 

Q. Are we doing something against the author's wishes?

A. No, Markus has stated that he supports this project (at least twice in this thread).

 

Q. Are we doing something shady that will mar the reputation of NMB?

A. No, as Brian, who has the most at stake in this regard, supports this project.

 

Q. Is this project financially risky?

A. No, absolutely not if we proceed as outlined previously. Collect pre-order payments in advance, getting agreement from a printing company of our choice to print a certain number of copies with particular specifications for a specific dollar amount. Markus will even know his earning from this project in advance and can cancel the entire deal right up to the time when we sign a contract with the printing company if he feels the deal in inequitable to him in any way.

 

Q. Do we have sufficient manpower to carry this project to successful completion?

A. With Markus, Brian, and Adrian, I have complete confidence in this project. We really need 100 pre-orders, though.

 

In the absence of exclusive contractual agreements between Markus and the printing companies he currently uses, what we are doing, in the broadest sense, is the time-tested "competition" of the free-market economy. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it. After all, we, collectively as members of NMB, are essentially doing the marketing for Markus's books right now. Why should we not enjoy the benefits of :1) higher quality printing, 2) ease of ordering, 3) lower cost, 4) NMB-Edition that we can all be proud of as members, all the while getting Markus his due compensation with which he is happy?

 

Unless there are fallacies in the above argument, I really don't see any issue. In the end, it will come down to this: if Brian and Markus decide to give the final green light, we either support the project by pre-ordering or sit on the sideline. Either way is fine, as we all have our opinions and choices, but the project will proceed (with the approval of Markus and Brian, of course).

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Andi B.]

Hello,

maybe Markus can tell us, if the quality of the source is so good, that a offset print would be much better than a digital one?

The idea is good to look for quality improvement!

Thanks!

[Dr Fox]

 

 

It's all very simple: the main objective is to get a higher quality printing which, if enough people pre-order, may end up even cheaper than the current, lower quality offering.

 

 

Chris

Its so simple, that I (and perhaps a few others) dont get what is on offer now?, simply because nothing at this point is offered, nor any price available as a price at point of sale figure. I would expect there is a great deal to do, before pre-order commitments are made by anyone. I do note you hedge your bets with: "may end up even cheaper than the current, lower quality offering" for my money if it doesn't, then its a pointless exercise.

 

I say lets get rid of the basket of if's, and get some constructive enquiries and prices on the project, because at the moment I feel, the wrong arguments are being favoured. Loose the dogs of war!

Denis.

[Brian]

I would suggest a maximum price point of $200 excluding shipping for either method. High quality digital or offset, both on quality paper, hard cover, maybe cloth bound. Either choice higher quality than the current offerings. If the price goes above that, then the project is abandoned. Maximum, $200 for BOTH volumes. Hopefully less.

Markus to get (in my estimation) anything between 60%-80% of the price. NO-ONE else to make any money at all. This isn't about profit.

Markus gets to sell more books through the extra promotion and higher quality, we get to own a limited edition that we helped create. Win/win for all.

Does that answer all questions?

Guido...we all spend a lot of money on books. Not sure if many of us choose to spend more if we don't have to though.

For me, the difference between $180 and $340 is the difference between own it or not right now.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

Brian, for offset print we need to keep the price at maximum 100$ in order to be able to get 100 pre-orders. It's clear that we won't get 100 pre-orders at 200$.

 

As for the money that Markus gets, 30% of 10.000$ (100$x100 copies) is 3000$ while 50% of 5000$ (200$x25 copies) is just 2500$ and for less books sold and in inferior quality. It would be fair to let Markus decide about it tho.

 

If Markus gives his OK I hope you don't have anything against running the global sticky that I proposed in an earlier message.

 

P.S. For a book of this size it is of paramount importance to get sewn binding.

[Alex A]

Adrian, why dont you just phone the 4 printers that you know and get a price for 250 books printed top quality, at least then you can come back with 4 different prices and work out how much it will be for each person. Your all going round in circles here. You know what the book entales, straight forward black only with a colour cover that will need designing, the printers will guide you on what you can have. The price will be less than you think. Most litho printers will accept a 250 run these days, there up against it with the digital guys. Obviously there will be a lot of books left over, marcus can decide what to do with them, its his book afterall.

 

 

Alex

[Adrian]

I know many more printers.

 

Don't worry, I will get quite a few different prices from each printer, depending on paper, cover, binding and so on. There's going to be choice, that's for sure.

If you want you can ask your father and brother if they want to make us an offer, I don't mind it at all.

 

Anyway, the poll is up viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15495 thanks to Brian.

 

It is only available in this section and will last one week.

[Markus]

If this project turns out to be realized, I am absolutely fine with 30% royalties.

I dont want to squeeze the max out of this and I would be happy if the 100 copies

for $100 plus shipping are achieved.

[Adrian]

Thank you Markus, this pretty much settles it.

[Alex A]

These books are very thick as you know, books of this size we would print then send out for finishing to a specialist. There are of course specialist book printers that can do everything in house, maybe thats your guys. I will be happy to get you a price for comparison. As you have stated, no rush, ring around the places that you know, and take it from there. It will be interesting to see how the poll goes, maybe would have been better to get a few rough prices first though. If i where you id also get a price for digitally printed insides, it isnt as bad as it used to be, just doesnt have the sharpness of offset. At least with some prices you will have more of an idea, best to take it from there.

 

Alex

[Adrian]

Alex, I'm already sure that 100$ can be done. And yes, I've talked just with printers that can do everything in-house. What I'm doing now is haggling for even better paper and so on :lol:

[John A Stuart]

You may remember that I had trouble entering the destination country for Markus' books Index. Well BOD figured it out and the hard cover books are shipped. I love efficiency. John

 

 

Die Nachverfolgung über den angegebenen Link ist möglich, sobald Ihr Paket ein DHL-Lager erreicht hat. Dies kann bis zu einem Werktag in Anspruch nehmen.

 

 

 

Für weitere Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

 

Ihr BoD-Team

[John A Stuart]

The books arrived today. Hard cover and a good printing unlike some of Hawley's books. They shipped for the original mailing within Europe fee. John