Update: Index of Japanese Swordsmiths

[Markus]

I just saw the thread in the For Sale section and realized that my Index of Japanese Swordsmiths

is still not available at amazon.com. That should already be done since fall last year but bod.de

obviously did not get it worked.

Tu cut a long story short, I´ve uploaded them on Lulu.com. Unfortunately, the don´t offer

hardcover with that format so I deducted the costs for that, that´s why the price is lower than

the actual price on bod.de.

 

Here are the links:

 

http://www.lulu.com/shop/markus-sesko/i ... 53489.html

 

http://www.lulu.com/shop/markus-sesko/i ... 53496.html

 

Oh, and I would like to use this opportunity and say thank you to all of my supporters!

 

[Edit]

[Adrian]

Markus, do you have some sort of exclusivity contract with bod.de or lulu.com?

 

I was thinking about doing some research about printing (cheaper - somewhere in the Eastern Europe) some sort of NMH limited edition. It would be a pre-order type edition, of course. Let me know what you think about it.

[Alex A]

Sounds expensive, and with more hassles than you can shake a stick at.

 

Alex

[Adrian]

Alex, there's really no need to post negative comments if you don't really know the editing business. A pre-ordered edition is very easy to deal with, the only catch is to have enough copies ordered so the the price per copy can be kept at a reasonable level. This is where printing in countries where labor is still cheap can make the difference.

 

Also Markus is well known on this board so a project like this shouldn't have credibility issues.

[Alex A]

HaHa, Adrian, my father was a printer, runs his own print business, my brother runs his own print business, I work at a printers in the uk that is regarded as one of the best for quality, as well as run the business with my brother. Sorry if you think i was being negative, i just know what printing a book entales, and especially overseas! infact, as i write this im stood at the side of a multimillion pound press printing a book, now thats ironic!!....il butt out.

 

Alex.

[Brian]

 

Ok....I will now delete any further comments unless from Markus or relevant.

Markus has authored and had published so many books, I am VERY sure he has explored all the possibilities. It's up to him now.

I looked at sites such as http://www.instantpublisher.com and it does look like you could do a small run of 25 luxury prints, cloth bound, on high quality gloss paper for a very reasonable price. But it is up to Markus now. I would be interested in a "NMB Special Edition" that we could pre-sell here, but don't know if there are any exclusive agreements out there.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

I looked at sites such as http://www.instantpublisher.com and it does look like you could do a small run of 25 luxury prints, cloth bound, on high quality gloss paper for a very reasonable price. But it is up to Markus now. I would be interested in a "NMB Special Edition" that we could pre-sell here, but don't know if there are any exclusive agreements out there.

 

Brian

 

 

And if we don't go for cloth bound, on high quality gloss paper there are numerous publishers where one can print many more copies for pretty much the same total price Of course this would require a small market research that I presume NMB would probably be happy to host. Something like "would you be interested to pre-pay for "The Index of Japanese Swordsmiths" if printed in

 

1. features A for price X

2. features B for price Y

 

and so on. Where "features" stands for the technical characteristics of the edition.

 

When someone comes up with an idea like this one, I think it's better if everyone contributes in a positive manner (particularly if having printing experience). My 2 p, of course.

[Lingonberry]

Amazon actually has a partnership with a publishing company called createspace that more or less does what Adrian seems to be talking about. They call it the "manufacturing-on-demand" model, where books are printed as customers order them. I have no idea what this does with pricing, though.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/seller-account ... =200260520

[Adrian]

Adam, actually what I'm talking about is something different.

 

Printing on demand is used with books that have very little demand (and it usually means a high price per copy). This is what lulu.com does. What I'm talking about is getting pre-orders for a number of copies (probably 100 would be a number that would make sense) and then finding a publisher with a good price/copy ratio for such a small number of copies.

 

For a nihonto book, a partnership with a community like NMH makes such approach possible. Usually a number like 100 copies was way too small just a few years ago, but in the current economy there are publishers who will offer relatively good deals even for such low figures.

[Alex A]

Its true to say that digital printing has cut costs for this type of work on short runs, however quality isnt as good or as sharp as litho printing. Even on short runs we would only do the inside pages digitally, most covers are done litho, i suppose it depends on the quality that you require. There are places in the uk that specialize is this kind of work, a typical price for 100 a4 books, black only insides, full colour cover, 500 page, perfect bound on decent paper is roughly £800. When you think about it £8 per book isnt bad. This is basic though, i like a cover to stand out, block foiled, laminated etc, obviously at a greater expense. We do get printing done abroad, in germany, only basic stuff. Personally i would only get a 480p book printed in my own country where i can keep an eye on things, i know what hassles can crop up, pdf problems etc. Printers make a lot of money simply correcting artwork, an hidden cost that mounts up. Postal prices can also mount up, 100 thick books is an hefty weight! Anyway, a bit to think on. ps, always ask for proofs, an extra expense, but neccassary

 

Alex

[Markus]

Back home I want to share some of my experience.

 

First of all, most of my books did not go beyond the 100-something print-run.

When I started to publish my first book (the German version of the Legends and

Stories around the Japanese Sword), bod.de fit perfectly as I had really no idea

of the number of sold copies, as it was small and ideal for paperback.

 

As Adrian said, the small print run dictates the high price at print on demand.

Talking to my colleagues and buyers of my books at the sword meetings I found

out that there is a kind of barrier of book prices. As now information is more

easily available than 15 or 20 years ago, people are no longer that willing to

spend much on high-end books. Well, some do (me included sometimes), but when

I think back when I started I bought books in the high three-digit numbers, sometimes

with horrible shipping prices. That has definitely changed.

 

The positive thing at the print on demand pulishers like bod.de and lulu.com for me

is that all the shipping and the amazon listing is done by them automatically. And

the books stay online. At bod.de you have to pay a small fee for data management

per book per year but not so at lulu.com (one reason I changed, not only because

of the better royalties).

 

What I can read from the author´s contract is that nothing speaks against a

limited special edition via an another publisher. But with the number of already

sold copies in mind, I have my doubts that we can break the 100-copies barrier

with the Index. I haven´t even sold 100 copies so far (German and English together).

 

But I am open for everything. :D

[John A Stuart]

When I buy books I want to keep for reference I want hard covers and acid free paper as well as the best printing available. The extra cost means nothing to me for books of this type. Soft covers and poor paper I buy only when there is no other choice. I do not mean this for pulp fiction or light reading. Adrian, you mention NMH. Do you mean NMB? and what is the book to reference that you would like to publish? John

[Adrian]

 

What I can read from the author´s contract is that nothing speaks against a

limited special edition via an another publisher. But with the number of already

sold copies in mind, I have my doubts that we can break the 100-copies barrier

with the Index. I haven´t even sold 100 copies so far (German and English together).

 

But I am open for everything. :D

 

These are the important parts . I'm sure something can be worked out for everyone's benefit, if Brian wants to play ball, so to speak.

 

 

When I buy books I want to keep for reference I want hard covers and acid free paper as well as the best printing available. The extra cost means nothing to me for books of this type. Soft covers and poor paper I buy only when there is no other choice. I do not mean this for pulp fiction or light reading. Adrian, you mention NMH. Do you mean NMB? and what is the book to reference that you would like to publish? John

 

 

Yup, sorry, NMB of course. I had a lot of very different things to do today and there was probably some fried circuit on one synapse :lol:

 

The book I'm talking about here is Markus' "Index of Japanese Swordsmiths", both volumes.

 

For the rest, please be assured that I'm not talking about newspaper grade paper and soft covers either. But based on my previous experiences with the printing business, the total cost of printing a nice edition shouldn't pass the 40 euros/copy (both volumes) mark. Hardcover and good quality paper included.

Tbh I expect much less if everything is done properly.

 

Let me just say that I know a company that will do offset printing (good quality) starting from 500 copies. And I have the distinct feeling that this figure can be worked down.

[Surfson]

It would be great to see example pages from Markus' book. Does it list other sources that have examples of mei etc. (like Grey's book)? This would be a fabulous step forward. In any case, I would be interested at a 40 euro for the whole set price. Cheers, Bob

[John A Stuart]

Markus' book is already available in hard cover. Have I missed something? John

[Markus]

Markus' book is already available in hard cover. Have I missed something? John

 

Yes, it is still available in hardcover, although you have to get it either from bod.de or amazon.de.

I have been informed that it works even from the US if you order it from amazon.de.

 

http://www.amazon.de/Index-Japanese-Swo ... 81&sr=8-25

[Markus]

It would be great to see example pages from Markus' book. Does it list other sources that have examples of mei etc. (like Grey's book)? This would be a fabulous step forward. In any case, I would be interested at a 40 euro for the whole set price. Cheers, Bob

 

Bob, don´t forget I have to make some money with them as the sets were hell of a work. So there will definitely a noticeable plus to the printing fee of 40 Euro. :D

 

You can find some example pages here (somewhat down the thread):

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13154&

[John A Stuart]

I ordered both from BOD.de some time ago. The only thing is their site did not allow any country on the drop down except German speaking countries. So, my shipping address is; such and such, Tuktoyaktuk, NT, Canada, X0E 1C0, Deutschland. I hope they figure it out. Using the e-version now. John

[Adrian]

Markus' book is already available in hard cover. Have I missed something? John

 

 

John, it is available in hard cover and the cost of both volumes is 270$ = 210 euros at today's rate. And that's on Lulu, because on Bod.de it's 260 euros for both volumes. What I'm talking about is a small, pre-ordered edition sold to the NMB members at a much lower price.

[Adrian]

It would be great to see example pages from Markus' book. Does it list other sources that have examples of mei etc. (like Grey's book)? This would be a fabulous step forward. In any case, I would be interested at a 40 euro for the whole set price. Cheers, Bob

 

As Markus pointed out it cannot be sold at print cost as that doesn't include author's money, the NMB donation and the various other expenses associated with handling and individually packing 100 two volume sets weighting some 5+lbs each. (since this will be a pre-ordered edition I think this can be done at the printing company but they will charge for it, of course). However, since neither Markus nor Brian strike me as greedy , I'm sure the total can be kept at a very attractive level.

 

 

Anyway, what we will need to do first is the market research, probably in the form of a sticky topic. Once the number of copies can be figured out I would be able to negotiate with a few printing companies and come up with a few variants of total cost (depending on the paper quality choices and so on). From that point it should be pretty straightforward.

 

Keep in mind that we need a relatively large number of members to be interested in order to get offset print (as opposed to digital) so it's of paramount importance to keep the price as low as possible.

[Brian]

Forget about quantities of 100 as Markus hinted at. Wasting your time with that.

If this was to be viable, you need to look at about 25 books, and for them to be desirable, they should be hard cover, high quality and good gloss paper.

I think it could be done digitally for about $200 per set, including a decent markup for Markus, excluding postage. For hard cover, 2 volumes, that is a steal imho.

 

Brian

[Adrian]

Brian, this board has 2913 members, do you really think that 100 of them wouldn't be interested to buy this book if the price was low enough and the quality was good?

 

Keep in mind that the sales figures mentioned by Markus are for 260 euros/set (the price on bod.de ) as he just added them on lulu (210 euros/set paperback). Don't you want to give it a try and see how many would be interested?

 

You should consider that, as mentioned before, offset printing offers much better quality then digital.

[Alex A]

Adrian, before you start talking price for offset printing have you looked at the book in detail? Is it black only text throughout? or is there colour anywhere?, this can dramatically affect the price. For a good quality book of this size i would recommend the spine stitched, otherwise it may not last, and that costs. There are many things to look into and many ways to go.

 

Anyway, i feel like im jumping the gun a bit here :? , if anyone wants any advice regarding print i will be happy to advise, simply pm me.

 

Alex.

[Adrian]

Adrian, before you start talking price for offset printing have you looked at the book in detail? Is it black only text throughout? or is there colour anywhere?, this can dramatically affect the price.

 

 

See for yourself: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13154&st=0&sk=t&sd=a (check out the attachments in Markus' post)

 

As for the rest, considering the fact that I helped publish quite a few big sized painting albums, I'd say I'm quite aware of the problems which appear when publishing such large books. But thanks for the help offer tho.

[Alex A]

Il leave you to it then.

 

Alex

[b.hennick]

I would like to be the first to go on the list of buyers of such a book. If there will only be 25 copies I would buy two.

Some us are book people who like to actually hold the book and thumb the pages. I did buy some of Markus's digital editions but I find that I would rather read or reread physical books than use the digital ones.

EDITED Below

My error I do want the hard copy book when available. I do not want the digital edition. I would still buy two copies of the hard copy book. I would be happier with a high quality print copy than a lower quality (cheaper) book. I tend to use my books and reread them when i can. (Recently retired and more reading in the future. :D )

[Adrian]

Barry, at this point there are two options being discussed:

 

1. 25 copies digital print @ about 200$ per 2 volumes set

2. 100 or more copies offset print @ less the 100$ per 2 volumes set

 

TBH the difference between the 25 copies option and the current offers on lulu and bod is very slim. Sure it would be a bit cheaper but it will still be digital print, with the inherent disadvantage of lower print quality.

 

The second option would be not only vastly superior in terms of print quality (offset) but will also come at 1/3 the price of the current options on lulu or bod.

 

The only catch here is that we need a much higher number of copies to be pre-ordered. (4x)

 

This is why a bit of market research would be useful.

[John A Stuart]

I'm sorry, I must be dense. Why do you need to do this if it is already available with a contractual agreement between Markus and his printers, that must have been his choice for publishing his intellectual property? How does he benefit and what does this achieve for those who buy your version rather than the version already published? Assuming Markus would agree anyway. It just sounds like eating from someone else's rice bowl. John

[Brian]

John,

I think Markus already suggested that he wouldn't have a problem. The idea is purely because the current print version though Lulu is soft cover only, and hence not great quality. The idea is to perhaps look at having these 2 books printed in a limited high quality edition, maybe with cloth binding and sewn..something that will last for years and be a good reference.

I am not sure if this will ever go anywhere, but let's make one thing clear....if it is done, it will be done for Markus' benefit only. Neither the NMB nor anyone else will make a cent. The idea is for the book to be available at a good price, and for Markus to make some sales.

 

I still lean towards looking at the http://www.instantpublisher.com/ option. Going through all the options, and getting an in depth quote on 25 copies with all the niceities such as black cloth bound, dust cover, high gloss pages, spine printed etc etc.....each book comes to about $44. 2 Volumes makes the set = $90. Add a markup for the author (dunno...worked on 100%) makes this set $180 for both volumes. Reduced depending on markup. That sounds very fair to me for cloth bound.

I am not sure of the limitations of digital printing. If the original pdf is high dpi..it shouldn't be bad at all? Anyways..just an exercise for now. Markus would have to comment.

Anyone who know the Nihonto market knows that 100 copies is ludicrous. People just don't commit. 25 or so copies is more realistic, maybe even 35. More is just a waste of time unless book sellers are prepared to order a bunch for stock.

 

Repeating.....all profits for the author. Nothing else will be entertained here.

 

Brian

[Alex A]

Digital printing looks quite good on uncoated stock, the kind of paper you see in most cheep paperbacks, on gloss or even silk for that matter it can look real flat, the image just sits on top, if i was doing it digital i would stick to an uncoated stock, but a good quality one, just some advice. The cover basically depends on the finish you want. You can use specialist board stock that resembles a leather bound book, looks quite good and is cost affective, there are quite a lot of things you can do to be honest, they do say you cant judge a book by the cover, buts its the first thing you look at.

 

Alex,