Jump to content

Kamiyoshi Higo Tsuba...


Soshin

Recommended Posts

Hi Everyone,

 

Well the Tampa show has came and went and I had a chance this afternoon to take some photographs of new iron tsuba I picked up at the show. Sorry about the dust in the photographs I need to start using compressed air or something to remove the dust before taking photograhs. This is a solid or ita tsuba as apposed to a sukashi tsuba with openwork. The measurements are 8.4 X 8.4 cm with a thickness of 4.0 mm at the rim. The design is of a Japanese citrus fruit laying on a background of pressed doe skin leather which contrasts the silky smooth surface of the fruit. The texture of this tsuba in hand is remarkable and can't be captured with 2D photography. Here is a link to where I have discussed this fruit design before on openwork tsuba by the Hayashi Higo school: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14486. Here is a helpful article from Wikipedia on what tachibana is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachibana.

Not sure as I am still in a research mode but the former owner was think it was the product of the Kamiyoshi Higo school circa the late Edo Period. The twin kozuka hitsu-ana do have a strong Higo shape. The Kamiyoshi school branched off from the Hayashi school around the mid 1700s in Higo Province and worked directly for the Hosokawa clan. There was a total of three generations ending in the Meiji Period. Just wanted to post this for other people to enjoy and discuss. Take care and enjoy the weekend. :)

 

P.S. I also picked up this cool wooden tsuba stand as well. :D

post-1126-14196860429951_thumb.jpg

post-1126-14196860076_thumb.jpg

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Everyone,

 

I updated the photographs of the tsuba. Both are in color but are of different perspectives for better reference.

Was doing some online searching and came across for sale a NBTHK Hozon papered tsuba by the third generation Kamiyoshi Rakuju: http://www.silk-road.us/higo-silk1.html. I noticed that the omote and the ura look almost identical in this tsuba much like mine. The purplish color patina is also similar as well. Would like other people opinions and web links or references about the Kamiyoshi Higo school. :)

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Junichi-san,

 

Thanks for the reply. The silky smooth surface of the of the iron is remarkable and with the deep dark purplish patina is almost sakudo like. From searching the forum here I learned that doe skin leather ito was a common trait of early Higo koshirea that was favored by the Hosokawa clan. The simulated leather surface on the surface of my tsuba is remarkable as well. I can only imagine how long that would have take to do by hand. To me it looks like my tsuba was possibly made by Kamiyoshi Rakuju. Sometime in the future I would like to submit it to shinsa to confrim my attribution.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't want to criticise here, but the carving seems a bit... amateurish? Or is that only my impression and I am wrong? :dunno:

 

The colour is very nice, I have to admit. Overall, this looks like pretty late work to me. Not that I am a Higo expert, so you can just ignore my opinion as an uneducated one :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David.

 

For what my opinion may be worth, because I am by no means a tsuba afficianado, although I seem to own rather a lot of the darn things for someone who professes no interest in them. However, my tastes go to the tactile qualities of tsuba and this one has a very pleasing mix of texture to it, I rather like the purplish patina as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keith,

 

You bring up an interesting point, which actually deserves a separate thread. Natural patination.

 

I have a brass door handle on the main entrance door of my house. Since I usually enter the house from the kitchen, this handle remains untroubled - no contant with hands, no abrasion. In its 12 years of exposure to sun, rain and air pollution it has developed a truly marvellous patina. It is dark brown, very deep... something I would appreciate on a tsuba. Mind you, it is plain brass and a plain object but the patina is gorgeous. I know this sounds stupid, but the Japanese penchant for things with patina has allowed me to appreciate a simple object.

 

The point I am making here - although patina is highly desirable on tsuba, the workmanship matters too, otherwise I would content myself with admiring my door handle. This would be cheaper than buying all those tsuba :glee:

 

Having said that - a tsuba without patina is an object which has lost at least half of its value and much of its charm. But patina is not all. Otherwise why would we blabber about hammer work, forging, and even about decoration (see discussion on Hamano and another one on Omori Teruhide).

 

I dare say, the carving betrays a mediocre tsubako, at best.

 

OK, I wait for the flak now ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In its 12 years of exposure to sun, rain and air pollution it has developed a truly marvellous patina. It is dark brown, very deep... something I would appreciate on a tsuba.

I absolutely agree with you on this, and would go so far as to add my own love of well-worn steel manhole covers and handrails to that.

 

I dare say, the carving betrays a mediocre tsubako, at best.

I have to agree on this as well. The lines are a little too mechanical to my eye, and much of the carving seems very "tentative" and over-measured - almost like the artist wasn't entirely sure of the tools yet...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kevin.

Yes, its late Edo and we do tend to discount tsuba of this vintage somewhat as more 'contrived' in appearance than earlier pieces.

However, the artist of this tsuba was dealing with a subject that is apart from the stem at the very base of the design, a symetrical object. Particularly since it is also the mon of the Tachibana. The tentative and overmeasured observation you make is in my mind perhaps due to this and the fact that he was dealing with a fairly shallow carving. The finish on this piece is very pleasing and quite precise to my eye. But..... what the heck do I know about tsuba? You guys have probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn about them. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Everyone,

 

Well trying to compare this to the Kinko Omori or Hanano schools is about as useful as comparing a apple to a kiwi fruit. The design itself is not complex but the use of differing textures, patina color, and the forge of the iron is what in my eyes makes it appealing. Yes it isn't very old as the Kamiyoshi school worked into the Meiji Period. Rakuju specifically I have read was well liked for his ability to produced silky smooth forged iron. Not to say this tsuba is by him as this piece is unpapered and I am not a expert but just a somewhat experienced collector. I hope more of the Higo collectors would weigh in to makes this a good learning experience.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David,

 

I was not comparing your tsuba with Hamano or Omori, just referring to a discussion about decoration. I find your tsuba appealing if not well executed, that is all. Could be late work, as you have indicated, maybe even Meiji. I agree that people knowledgeable about Higo should chime in :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I find your tsuba appealing if not well executed, that is all.

 

Hi Mariusz K.,

 

I think you have "hit the nail on the head" so to speak. I see a well executed design of a tachibana mon on a solid well forged iron tsuba utilizing two different types finishing techniques to the plate surface. The final touch is the patina which has just a wonderful color and luster. This serious lacking of color balance on Grey's photo on his website didn't make me want it either but when I view it in person I couldn't put the tsuba down. :) Well in the end everyone in entitled to their opinions. 8)

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi John S.,

 

Thanks for the reply I completely agree. I have been thinking of designing and putting together a koshirea at some point. It is a lot of work to do this but I think it would give me a larger perspective of tosogu and how they were used together as fitting for a Japanese sword. Curran's NBTHK Hozon papered Owari koshirea he displayed at the Tampa show was just wonderful. Attached is a image of a silver tachibana themed habaki which would look nice on a koshirea that had my tsuba. If anyone online is the owner of the habaki thanks for letting me photograph it at the Tampa show. :D

 

P.S. Found a link to this tsuba http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/25/b0/788d1d098bad8830ba646d50128d89bc.jpg searching "神吉鍔" using google.co.jp. To me the color of the patina and the texture of the iron is very similar to the smooth parts of my tsuba. Many more examples such as this one: http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/10/22/a7da03ae9e74f4b4d5a0b17c8b59bac5.jpg. The third and final good example I could find: http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/img/f00120_c_03.jpg. Overall I have found mostly ji-sukashi tsuba and only a few that are ita like mine.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

post-1126-14196860494125_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is funny because they guys who don't like the Kamiyoshi probably will love David's other purchase.

 

I think David's bold tsuba here would probably just get a general Kamiyoshi call. I cannot see it being called to any particular smith. I haven't seen the papers for the one on Silk-Road, but I doubt they say "Rakuju", otherwise that one is underpriced by a significant amount.

 

Some of the criticisms of its 'simplistic' carving are the same criticisms I have of Kamiyoshi fittings in general. I tend to love their flawless iron,

but often they are overpolished and over precise works. David showed me this tsuba I looked at it under a magnifier. Some of what looks like crude pattern is actually done with what seems to be a specifically designed punch to mimic some sort of skin. I thought calfskin grain, but think David is correct that it it closer to fine deerskin.

 

I'd wondered why this one hadn't popped off Grey's site, and thought it much better looking in person. The size and boldness of it is very unusual and does scream late Edo. Thing is we in the west seem to poo-poo all but the best Kamiyoshi works, yet the Japanese seem to really like them. Every one I've ever owned has sold back to Japanese gentlemen.

_________________________________________________

I look forward to David posting the other tsuba, as that is one I would have broken down and bought if I'd spotted it first.

A low key gem that checked out underneath magnification, despite my initial suspicions that it was a revival piece.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Curran,

 

Thanks for the informative and well worded reply. My Kamiyoshi Higo tsuba does look like it was made by someone with a obsessive–compulsive personality disorder. The design itself is very straight forward and bold with a degree of preoccupation with correctness. The forge of the iron of the plate is of a quality I have not seen in hand with time to really study until now and is remarkable. :shock: The layout of the design including the rim and thickness of the plate was done with much neatness, detail, and skill. The rim while only 4.0 mm thick is significantly thinner then the seppa-dai with its thickness adding to the boldness of the design. Well I have completed my psychoanalysis of the tsubako all in all I really like the tsuba likely because I am as crazy as he was. :crazy:

The second tsuba I purchased at the Tampa show I hope to take photographs of it and do a write up over the weekend if time permits.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Everyone,

 

While waiting at home because of a snow day yesterday I spent some time looking at this tsuba in hand. It turns out that the tachibana mon designs as well as the rim are not identical. I didn't really see the differences until I had put together a composite image of both the omote and ura side by side. Once I return from work I will post the composite image and my impressions. I will also list more information about the three generations of Kamiyoshi Higo school that I found.

 

____Edit___

 

The composite image has been added. Something I find really interesting is the somewhat different rendering of tachibana mon design including the rim on the omote and ura sides. I also notice the difference in overall size of the tachibana fruit relative to the doeskin background and smooth rim borders almost all ka-mon designs. The precision of the tsubako to create this effect using a similar but not identical rendering of the same design is remarkable in my opinion. I always love to discovering new things about a tsuba. I think a good tsuba like a good nihonto is like this.

 

I was reading in Sasano first English translated book page 23 that the first generation didn't sign any of his work and that many were coping works of his teacher 3rd Hayashi master Tohachi. There are a few signed examples of the second generation Kamiyoshi work. The third generation Kamiyoshi was so great that he was often called the second Matashichi. The book Higo Kinko-roku says that the metal in his guards has a beautiful patina and that hew was extremely skilled in both zogan and open-work techniques.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

post-1126-1419686085048_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Everyone,

 

Just as a quick notice. I have updated with a composite image and additional information about Kamiyoshi school. Thanks for reading and enjoy... :D

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

Hi Everyone,

 

I was told via telephone the NTHK shinsa results for this tsuba yesterday. I will post a write up to this topic once I get the tsuba and the paperwork back from SF show sometime next week. I sure it will be an interesting learning experience. Please feel free to discuss while I wait for the return of the tsuba and the all important paperwork.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For what it's worth I'd like to throw me 2 yens worth into the discussion.

 

I'm afraid I have to agree with Mariusz and Kevin in their critique of the workmanship. I think Kevin is absolutely spot on when he writes;

 

I have to agree on this as well. The lines are a little too mechanical to my eye, and much of the carving seems very "tentative" and over-measured - almost like the artist wasn't entirely sure of the tools yet...

 

The 'flawless iron' , as it's been described, appears to me to be uninteresting modern mild steel plate. When did featureless steel become desirable in any tsuba? The work of the Kamiyoshi group, while often quite precise and the steel very refined simply does not exhibit the sort of overly crisp and hard look this example has. Genuine handmade steel of any reasonable age has a subtle, soft looking, textural quality that's almost velvety (but wet ;) ), this is in large part a result of the way the metal was refined through the forging of the tatara bloom and it never having been fully molten. Modern steels start off being totally molten and this results in a very different internal structure that is inevitably visible in the patina. And as for patina, I find it lifeless, dry and dull, as though it came straight out of a bottle. It lacks any depth or tonal variety.

 

My impression is that this is the work of a relatively recent amateur. The work is not particularly complicated yet the handling of the carving reveals a lack of professional experience you simply don't see in genuine older work. The texture in the recessed areas is perfunctory and in places even reveals staggered punch marks that simply look sloppy.

 

I can't see any convincing or authentic Higo traits in the piece myself (the shape of the ryo-hitsu is too easily copied so that doesn't count as far as I'm concerned) and the Kamiyoshi attribution seems pretty arbitrary.

 

To be absolutely blunt I don't think this tsuba has any redeeming features at all and I really don't think students of this art ought to ruin their eyes studying it. I don't mean to be sarcastic in saying that either. What I mean is if students study really poor examples (I'm being kind in this case) their basis for comparison and evaluation will be severely handicapped.

 

I realise that not everyone has an unlimited budget for collecting and that sometimes we have to settle for less than the best but, for the money, there are many much better pieces available. It merely takes a bit more discernment to find them.

 

Sorry David, but you did ask for opinions and I'd hate for newcomers to this field to get the idea that this is a piece worthy of study as an example of Higo or Kamiyoshi workmanship.

 

I think it's vital to recognise this sort of feature (amateur workmanship) because failing to see it means that other hobby pieces may also be accepted as genuine antique works and the general impression of the subject may become distorted.

 

 

Ford

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Ford H.,

 

Thanks for the reply and expressing your opinion about the tsuba in a constructive and articulate manner. I do disagree on one point that the discussion of this tsuba is unimportant. It is important to the learning process and I think other members can benefit that is why I started the topic in the first place. If the admins of the site or Brian R. feel otherwise they can delete the topic. I am going to wait until I have the NTHK shinsa worksheet in hand as I don't want to paraphrase NTHK shinsa team's judgement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear David

 

thank you for taking my rather direct comments in the way they were intended, merely as impersonal observations and opinion.

 

And I would agree with you that the discussion about the piece does have value as you suggest, it's just the tsuba itself that I feel is less worthy of appreciation. I don't see any reason to delete this discussion either, I think readers ought to be free to examine the differing opinions and judge for themselves based on what evidence and/or rationale is on offer. :)

 

I await with interest the Shinsa panels opinions also. Do we know who they were and what their qualifications might be ? ;-)

 

regards,

 

Ford

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ford H.,

 

Thanks for the clarification of your views. It is helpful for understanding and cooperation. The results of the shinsa was not favorable but I am not going to elaborate until I have the shinsa worksheet in hand to examine and post the full results for educational purposes.

 

It should be noted that going into this I knew next to nothing about Higo tsuba in general. I think this purchase and submission was a good but very expensive lesson. The price tag now is $650 USD (tsuba price plus shinsa fee) which is not easy for me to forget given my small budget for such things. :cry:

 

In answer to your question about the NTHK shinsa team. I only know one member of the team that handles tosogu and he is Jim Gilbert. Here is a link to this website: http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/tsuba.htm. He is a very knowledge collector for many years and is the current President of the New York Token Kai, Vice President of the American Branch of the NBTHK, and likely a long time member of the NTHK. I am sure Tom Helm can contact you via PM with the names of the Japanese members who are on the tosogu shinsa team and their qualifications.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi David,

 

sorry to hear that the shinsa was disappointed and that this has been a costly learning curve. I do hope, though, that by working together as a community to learn more such painful lessons might be reduced to a bare minimum.

 

Thanks for the link to the Shinsa details. Kaigunair also helpfully sent me a link to the biographies of the panel members. A highly qualified panel by any reckoning, I think. Here's the direct link. :)

 

regards,

 

Ford

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Everyone,

 

I have the tsuba and the paperwork. Here is the complete write up about my tsuba is which is the topic of the tread.

Non-Certification (Pink Paper)

Item No.: K293

The Kanji for Tsuba (鐔) is circled.

"Modern Made (gendai) 現代" is circled.

Under general critical remarks is written "Showa Jidai" in Romaji.

The person that handled the tsuba for me really liked it and said I should keep it. One person who replied above has emailed how much they like the tsuba and other interesting tidbits. In the end I am going to think about it a while and decided if I want to return it as the person I purchased it from has a return policy, is a honest dealer, and frequents the NMB. I would ask for store credit in the amount equal to the purchase price. Here are some photos of the tsuba by the dealer: http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/holbrook-tsuba/h180-higo-kamiyoshi. Please feel free to offer your opinions or helpful comments. Does anyone know of a tsubako making Higo style copies in the Showa Period? I don't know many off the topic of my head. There was one guy who is no longer living but was a living national treasure in the Showa Period that would often work in the Hayashi/Kamiyoshi school. I have some examples of this works in the NBTHK monthly Magazines that I need to find on my bookshelf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:popcorn:

 

As stated earlier, saw this tsuba on a website and wondered about its age.

Saw it in Tampa and though it was more interesting.

Then got to sit with it under magnification and think about it for a while.

 

I appreciate most of Ford's comments, though don't agree on some of the key points.

Perhaps I would have agreed had I not sat with the tsuba.

 

I'm not confident whether it is Edo or Meiji, but I'm rather sure it isn't Showa or more recent.

It is well preserved and incredibly polished (though not to the point of some of Sasano's tsuba), yet shows points of age and wear. Just not easily visible in the photos.

It has the feel and finish of pieces I've see on some better preserved Toppei koshirae.

Those punch marks are as controlled as skilled nanako, though I couldn't tell that until looking under magnification. If I remember correctly, their actually little 'y's like chidori feet? David will need correct me, but I remember it being a different that I had first though when looking. I just assumed it was generally patterned, but 10x magnification showed very tight punchwork.

 

Don't know how many judges it takes to pink an item at the NTHK. Anyone have a run-down on who were the judges this time?

Last time I think Mr. Helm posted Bios on his page.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, as I should have seen that.

I had dinner with Iwamoto-san years ago, and enjoyed meeting with him. I'd enjoy talking with him again someday.

 

The last 3 times I dealt with the Yoshikawa NTHK, there were 4 individuals supporting the fittings kantei.

Ie. Three Japanese and American english fluent gent.

Who were the other two Japanese the fittings panel this time around?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...