Hakagaki Translation

[Bob M.]

Any help that could be given with translation of the attached would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Bob M.

[Rich T]

Hi Bob, without attempting to translate the hakogaki, I think this may be a forgery of Kanzan Sato's writing. 2 things lead me to this conclusion.

 

1: I have heard from very good sources that anything with a seal or Hanko is almost certainly a forgery. Sato may never have used a seal on his signature. Just a Kao.

 

2: This looks very new to me, the ink is new as is the seal. Plus the box looks very new as well. Considering the date is a Showa date (I think Showa 45 or 1970) I do not think that box is that old.

 

Also Sato's brush stokes look to have age, or like they are a little thin and they are very fluid.

 

This is not a very big example but this image on Ricecracker looks like typical Sato Hakogaki.

 

http://www.ricecracker.com/inventory/item593_menuki_botan/item-m-3-omori-botan-748%20copy.jpg

 

I could be wrong but it is my gut feeling.

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[Pete Klein]

This is an example of a known hako gaki by Kansan Sato with hanko. However -- there seem to be quite a few forgeries out there so be careful about using the hako gaki as a reference to quality or authenticity. It's good to remember that most of these were done before the various meikan were published with agreed upon reference mei so these boxes fall back to the era where the item &/or mei was judged by appearance and memory of other examples, often from the viewpoint of the judges teacher(s). Torigoye and Sasano also did many of these. It is interesting that with the advent of origami from certifying organizations these have pretty much ceased to be done. I have to wonder if with all the disparaging remarks made these days toward these older generation experts writings few of the current experts wish to put their heads on the chopping block for future generations of researchers?

[Pete Klein]

cover

[Nobody]

Any help that could be given with translation of the attached would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Bob M.

Hi,

Could you show us the photo of the tsuba? I would like to see the mei on the tsuba.

[Bob M.]

Hi,

Photo of mei attached - I understand it to refer to a joint work with Itou Shinsui...

Thanks!

Bob M.

[Stephen]

this is going to be one of them Tsuba that is a big Wow...cant wait to see the full shot, i hope someone will give what you askd for, a full translation please.

[Rich T]

certainly appears to be genuine and would dispel the idea that Sato NEVER did hakogaki, but I think the felling of very new sumie still sticks with me, this box looks just too new.

 

Pete also touches on an interesting point. Many people do question the great old and past scholars and there are accusations of sayagaki and hakogaki being written for favour, and claims of just bad judgement and simple mistakes. I have a hakogaki by Dr. Torigoye that is for 3 fuchi, on the front of the box it says 3 Kashira.

 

Now questioning is good when in the quest for learning and if new information is at hand, but I think many dismiss the older guys just out of hand, and write off any learnings they may have had. We have books and the internet to help us today, they had the luxury of looking at thousands of items in hand over many many years.

 

I think the point of new scholars being scared off seems legit as well and as I believe there are several forgeries of Dr. Tanobe's sayagaki getting around these days.

 

I guess it makes it tough for everyone, both teachers and students. Who ever said this was meant to be easy ?.

 

Rich

[John A Stuart]

Bob, You have some really nice tsuba from what you have posted so far. John

[Nobody]

These are the kanji for now. But I am still unsure about the mei.

 

素銅 磨地 木瓜形

片切彫 金銀色絵

象嵌 片櫃

 

銘 伊東深水画意

雪洲刻

 

昭和酉乙年新春吉日

寒山誌 (+花押)

[Nobody]

On the top of the box:

 

tsuba (鐔)

Sumida-gawa no zu (隅田川之図) = picture of Sumida-gawa (river Sumida)

[Nobody]

Here are translations. But I am still unsure about the mei.

 

 

素銅(suaka = pure copper), 磨地(migaki-ji = smooth surface), 木瓜形(mokko-gata),

片切彫(katakiri-bori), 金銀色絵(kin gin iroe = iroe with gold and silver),

象嵌(zogan = inlay), 片櫃(kata-hitsu = single hitsu-ana)

 

銘(mei) 伊東深水画意(Ito Shinsui gai = inspired by pictures of Ito Shinsui)

雪洲刻???(Sesshu kizamu??? = Sesshu carved???)

 

昭和酉乙年新春吉日(Showa tori-kinoto nen shinshun kichijitsu = a lucky day of the new year 1969)

寒山誌(Kanzan shirusu = Kanzan wrote) (+花押)

[Bob M.]

Hi Nobody,

Thanks for your help on this - do you think that the date refers to the hakogaki or the tsuba ? Although I suppose that it must be the hakogaki.

I will post pics of the tsuba shortly - on the reverse there is an image of a bridge ( probably early 20th century ) together with fireworks . Maybe a celebration of opening ? This might relate to the Sumida reference on the top of the box.

Bob M.

 

Hi Stephen,

You are right - this is a spectacular tsuba, although not in a conventional way. I have avoided putting the pics on the Board until after getting as much info. as possible, as I have found that others who have seen it become less than objective.

Incidentally , the tsuba was up for sale in Japan about 2years ago.

Bob M.

[Nobody]

do you think that the date refers to the hakogaki or the tsuba ? Although I suppose that it must be the hakogaki.

Hi,

The date refers to the kakogaki without doubt.

[Bungo]

the punch marks around the hole look interesting.....................

 

 

milt the ronin

[roninjje]

okay, let's see the bloody tsuba!

[Martin]

the punch marks around the hole look interesting.....................

 

AFAIK some Higo-schools used those kind of punch marks

 

cheers,

[Bungo]

http://www.esnips.com/web/tsuba?docsPage=28#files

 

 

tantomon.jpg

 

 

milt the ronin

[Bob M.]

O.K. Tsuba as promised (maybe not worth the wait).

Bob M.

[Brian]

I think we found a tsuba that Milt will mortgage his house for :lol: :D

Seriously..an outstandingly well done tsuba. The detail in the hair...and especially the feint reflection of the bridge in the water has me amazed.

First time I have seen fireworks represented too, and very well done.

Ignoring the obvious cheap shots that can be taken...I think this is amazingly well done. Would be very intrigued to know what Ford would have to say about it.

 

Thanks for sharing Bob. As hinted at..looks like you have many really good tsuba to show us over time

 

Regards,

Brian

[Bungo]

I salute your sense of humor !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

milt the ronin

[Bob M.]

Opinions, please .

Does anybody think that the tsuba/box make sense as a package or are we looking at somebody's fantasy and not a real tsuba ( although in the view showing the bridge ,there appears to be a discolouration indicating mounting ).

Thanks for all the interest.

[Bungo]

are the two babes sword polishers?

 

milt the ronin

[Bob M.]

Jury's out on that - but I'd let them polish my weapon any day - just don't know which style....

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Bob,

 

While the mei you've posted looks very nice indeed and I second Stevens appeal to" see it all", I have to agree with Rich (T) with regard to the hakogaki. The box is undoubtedly far too new and the ink is also far too clean and fresh. Smudged seals, particularly in such a garish red are always very suspect in my book. And finally, if you compare the style of brush work with the example that Pete Klein was good enough to share with us, they are demonstrably quite different. Taking the other factors, I mentioned, into account we must assume that Pete's one is the genuine one.

 

This, of course, in no way means that the tsuba your hakogaki describes is in any way inferior or suspect in it's own right.

 

that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

cheers, Ford

[Curran]

Just off the top of my head-

 

I thought I recognized this tsuba, or it is very similar to one I remember being up for sale in Japan. I do not remember the details of when it was for sale, but I do remember that the conclusion reached at the time was that it was made by a modern tsuba smith in the late 1960s or early 1970s.

 

Again... I have no evidence to back this up. Just my memory that I am fairly certain I have seen this tsuba before and wondered about it. I have no memory of the hakogaki.

[Bungo]

indeed we have seen this tsuba...............I think it's buried somewhere here on this very same message board.

The censor will have to " dig it out "..............since they always claim to be ever vigilant.

milt the ronin

[Ford Hallam]

I've just realised, as my request to see the tsuba would indicate, that I didn't see the second page when I made my first post re; the hakogaki.

 

Having now seen the tsuba in question I would suggest that it was produced in Japan, possibly by an amateur and most likely post 1950. And while not a daisho....that's still a nice pair. :D

 

I would guess, based on having dealt with quite a few pieces of metalwork of this period, that what appears to be inlay in gold and silver is actually plating. An examination of the inner edge of the nakago-ana, where the silver of the figures reaches, may give a clue as to whether it's genuine inlay or not.

 

cheers, Ford

 

p.s. these ladies are extremely well endowed too, another dead give away! My research would seem to indicate that that would be a relatively recent possibility and is still somewhat rare. Also, a true appreciation of Japanese beauty should not require such blatant westernization.

[Ford Hallam]

To add to the growing picture here's some more info. The apparent "collaboration" with Ito Shinsui would appear to be based on copying one of his paintings. Ito Shinsui was renowned for his :bijinga", paintings of beauties, including partially clad, or nude ones. He lived from 1898 until 1972. I've not found the actual painting that was used in this case but here is an example which may give you an idea, I believe it is a woodblock print, with hand finishing touches.