Please explain this hardening for me.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello George,

 

My response was not pointed at you, sorry if it seemed so.

[Lance]

I think the idea of flaws being a kantei point to Hankei is one of inclusion instead of exclusion, if the rest of the workmanship matched it wouldn't be a reason to dismiss it and would be expected, instead of thinking that such a famous smith's blades should be perfect.

Sort of like how Hizen-to are known to have thin kawagane; small spots of core steel showing through from multiple polishes wouldn't be a reason to dismiss that one either if everything else matched, and might even help point to an earlier generation.

 

Regards,

Lance

[nagamaki - Franco]

if the rest of the workmanship matched it wouldn't be a reason to dismiss it

 

.....

 

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

if the rest of the workmanship matched it wouldn't be a reason to dismiss it

 

So kizu are not kantei point, just a plus; kantei point are found in the rest of workmanship.

 

Sort of like how Hizen-to are known to have thin kawagane; small spots of core steel showing through from multiple polishes wouldn't be a reason to dismiss that one either if everything else matched, and might even help point to an earlier generation.

 

 

No, never.

 

Back to what said Honma sensei : "The tiny cracks in the steel surface ar his trait, so to speak" In my understanding he is not affirmative.

[Jean]

I really don't know how to interpret it, Jacques, in French it is translated by "Pour ainsi dire", it is generally a confirmation. (literally, I could translate it in English by "another way to say it")

[george trotter]

 

Back to what said Honma sensei : "The tiny cracks in the steel surface ar his trait, so to speak" In my understanding he is not affirmative.

 

Pocket Oxford dictionary "trait: a distinguishing feature or characteristic".

From the dictionary meaning of Homma sensei's words, he is saying hada ware is a distinguishing feature or characteristic of Hankei work.

That sounds like something you could use to help confirm a Hankei work...how can you say it is not a kantei point?

Regards,

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jean,

 

"Pour ainsi dire" is same as "si on veut", "ça peut", "en quelque sorte" etc....

 

Georges,

 

 

you can see tate ware on sword by every smith, a tate ware (or another kizu) never leads you finding who is the smith who made the sword. A kantei point is a feature which help you to determine the maker of the sword you examine. Saying a flaw can be a kantei point is a nonsense.

 

Here below, two swords by hankei; where are those famous kantei points ?

 

http://sanmei.com/contents/media/T4480_S2220_PUP_E.html

 

http://www.premi.co.jp/k-hankei03.html

[george trotter]

Jacques,

I don't think Homma sensei is claiming that the tiny cracks are present in every sword made by Hankei, just that they are known in his work. They must be common enough to be recognised by expert such as Homma as a "trait" of Hankei. For Homma to mention these cracks as a "trait" must mean that they have a significance as a kantei pointer to the work of Hankei.

Regards

 

Edit to add: Aaaahhhh...I have just read the post by Kunitaro sama about translating some kantei points from Japanese into English and I think I may have misunderstood the meaning of kantei point.

 

Jacques...when you say Kantei Points...do you mean that it is a score? ... like each good feature is a point and each bad feature (like hada ware) is a minus point?

That is why you are saying that a ware cannot be a kantei point because it is a kantei minus?

[Eric H]

Jacques D.

Post subject: Re: Please explain this hardening for me.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:04 am

Offline

Sai Jo Saku

 

Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:51 pm

Posts: 1915

Hi,

 

 

Quote: Eric H

but in his case these kizu are not considered as flaws, but as a characteristic of his workmanship,

 

Jacques D. (Reply)

About Hankei, it is said that this kind of kizu were not considered as flaws nevertheless they are not considered as a kantei point. :roll:

 

In the above the words „kantei point“ in my comment aren't visible, there is about „characteristic“.

I used „in some case this is an important kantei point“ in relation to muneyaki when it comes to individual smiths and schools, as mentioned earlier, the pic is from Kokan Nagayama‘s book. In connection to Hankei I have never asserted, that his kizu are a kantei point, one time I used the term „factor“ but „feature“ had possibly been the better choice.

The premi.co Hankei sword, added by Jacques D., however describes the existence of kizu. The translation is far away to be satisfactory, but the essential is visible, but i don't know if this is directly related to the sword or solely a general remark on his workmanship.

 

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Georges

 

Jacques...when you say Kantei Points

 

A kantei point is a characteristic which help you to find the school even the swordsmit who made a sword, For example konuka hada is a kantei point leading towards Hizen Tadayoshi school; Yotanba (coupled gunome) is a kantei point of Nagasone kotetsu. A kizu will never help you finding a smith or a school.

 

Eric,

 

You said :

Kantei is a methodical approach to identification of a sword‘s maker by examination of its shape and characteristics of workmanship.

In the case of Hankei‘s workmanship the kizu, sometimes but not always seen in his hada. Sensei Honma Junji: „The tiny cracks in the steel surface are his trait, so to speak“.

In my understanding this is a important factor in Kantei, of course aside of other characteristics of his workmanship.

 

An important factor in kantei is not a kantei point ? What are in reality kantei points for you ?

[cabowen]

To help clarify (?), here is the relevant section from Jacques' link:

 

地肌に竪割れが出るものが多く、独特の鍛えが繁慶の特徴とされています。

 

Translation:

 

There are a lot of tate ware appearing in the jihada; this unique (or peculiar) forging is a feature (trait, characteristic, peculiarity) of Hankei.

 

No single trait is taken in isolation in kantei. One must consider all the various information, from shape, forging, hardening, boshi, to nakago. Hankei's tate ware are just another trait or characteristic of his work. One would no more see a ware and go to Hankei than one would go to Tadayoshi when observing suguha.

 

However, the tate ware, like all other features of the blade, play a role in kantei. They are part of his kitae and are thus are to be considered, albeit in conjunction with the rest of the blade, like all other features. Of course they are important points to consider when kantei is performed.

[runagmc]

I fully agree with Chris, Eric, and George here. A kantei point is a characteristic of workmanship... bad or good... peculiar to one smith or common amongst many. Like Chris said, a single kantei point is only a small piece of the overall picture.

 

I would say that kantei points are not all equally important. Tate-ware would not be as strong of a kantei point for Hankei as his distinct nakago-jiri, for instance.

[Jean]

Ok guys, a specific topic has been opened in Nihonto General Discussion on "what is a kantei point", so I am going to lock this one, you can carry on in this new topic.