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Exhibited Shigetsugu Japanese sword katana sale Ebay


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Hi I just listed my sword and am trying to raise money for a new sword that I need to have. It is a exhibited Shigetsugu at his best. Please let me know your thoughts. Just put in Shigetsugu name in search window at Ebay and it will come up. My seller name on Ebay mikecanaday. Link

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330818541718

If anyone is interested in a Ebay sale or a off Ebay sale or offer Email me directly at my personal email at binheadkiller@aol.com or leave comment on this site.

Best

Mike Canaday

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Thanks John, You have an awesome site. It is the first look for me. Are the swords pictuced offered for sale or for research.........or both. Looks like your site took alot of effort. I use Steins commerical list for dealers and often miss the many great ones that are not on it. I need to pay more attention.

 

Best Mike

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A few things from your ebay write-up to keep in mind:

 

1. Kasama Shigetsugu did not make the swords with sosho mei such as on your sword. These were daisaku by students. He signed them and did the horimono. He had health issues that limited him to these tasks.

 

2. The Kasama blade on Aoi Art that you mention at $15,000 is an original, early work (kaisho mei) and is extremely rare due to its long length. These factors contribute greatly to its value and separate it from the large quantity of daisaku made during the war. It has been for sale on the Aoi site for several years at $15,000US which shows you can ask anything you want for a sword.

 

I have seen too many Kasama blades of both flavors to count and would agree that yours is one of the nicest. Best of luck with the sale....

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Hi Mike,

 

Indeed a wonderful sword, and exemplary work of Shigetsugu. I want to thank you again for sharing it for the NBTHK American Branch exhibit. The American Branch was able to exhibit several different works of Shigetsugu which provided an excellent opportunity to see his skill and diversity in both tanto and daito of different styles and at different ages. The Bizen Tanto with sakachoji utsuri was made in Taisho.

 

One small correction that I'd like to add though; Okimasa married Shigetsugu's daughter and thus was his son-in-law, not his brother-in-law. :) Just in case you get any questions on that part.

 

Good luck! The piece you're after must really be something if you're willing to part with this one!

 

Take Care,

Ted

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Hi Folks, Thanks for all your input. Ted thanks for displaying my sword.....and for all you do in the study of Nihonto and the eduction of rookie collectors like me. Like Chris.

Chris Bowen yes till lately it was assumed and I am quoting Clive Sinclair " In about 1938 or 1939, Shigetsugu suffered an illness which left him partially paralyzed and from this time on he concentrated on carving horimono and mei only.Many swords with his signature are signed in a running Sosho style calligraphy rather than the kaisho or block style of this sword (Hitler Sword-me).According to Ikkansai Tokehama Shigehisa, the modern day representative of the school,swords signed in Sosho style were made by pupils substituting for Shigetsugu (dai-saku) whilst those in the Kaisho, as with this sword (Hitler sword-me),are from Shigetsugu's own hand" end quote, Clive Sinclair, Token Society of Grat Britain, UK Sword Register No.48.

Now from NBTHK American Branch Exhibit Tampa Japanese Sword Show Feb, 2011 "A look at Gendaito as a Revial and Resurgence of Nihonto" by Ted Tenold Director, NBTHK on page 15 quote "However because there is an example of a kaisho signed sword dated June 1939 which would infer Shigetsugu made it himself,and this Shoso mei (My sword) example which is dated Februry, 1939 inferring Daisaku,questions arise about the Daisaku/Sosho mei practice as a wholesale change, and whether exceptions exist. Further study may clarify this in the future"end quote.

So which is right......I have found Sosho signed swords papered Hozon Shigetsugu,not Daisaku. My swords signed "That Shigetsugu made sword and horimono". If you try to find the above quote by Clive on this matter, it would seem that he has deleted this statement....as if it is now questionable. Maybe it is me....but while trying to find Clives write up now online it is not found, or it is found in changed form with no mention of Daisaku practices of Shigetsugu. Ted did you or Bob Benson discuss this matter with him....do you know?

Clive if your out there please comment, you are the expert and I would never speak for you, I am just rendering an opinion.

Chris I know I will never know as much as you when it comes to these matters and only am I stating that this is a cloudy issue. Certainly the Fudo is almost identical to the Shigetsugu Hitler sword, signed months before,signed in block style. Even Clives first statement that "his illiness was 1938 39".....which is it.

And "he then did just mei and carvings"......then would he not have carved his mei in block like always. If he can produce Fudo then why would the mei be any harder.....making him change his style. Maybe the chisel strokes would be harder.....maybe? He definatly,while healthy, could sign in any form he disired.

Certainly Shigehisa could tell us but who did he say this to. And the student and reprensentive of the school to coment about teacher/founder in such away is hardly Japanese.........that if so would probably not be spoken. I really question this statement or source.

I agree he probably definatly had Daisaku swords ill or not....like all good teachers. The fact that we are talking about it......and not sure is a testament to his teaching skills. No matter, it is a great piece in my opinion.

Okimasa was around at the time on the estate and could have executed this sword.......as you know he is rated higher than teacher. You did not hear him talking about Shigetsugu being ill or signing. Of course not.....it would have been disgraceful. If he hammered this one out with Shigetsugu, that would be a plus in my book. It would be great to have a sword signed by both.....of coure one does not exsist. They did things the traditional way.

Many questions, The fact is we will probably never know......but I will bet you a dollar and a refund to any buyer of this sword if it does not paper Hozon Shigetsugu.......only.

And of course your right, Aoi's sword is rare, long, and awesome. I bought my Sadakatsu from them and I love it. They have great items. I am just a sucker for horimono but highly recomend their swords and advice. There are alot of couse's in here.

Ted I will change the brother in law, son in law comment. Sorry for my poor writing and spelling. It is hard to hang with all you professional writers and experts. If I had to edit and spell check.....I would never get this posted.

Again Thanks for everyones time, comments, advise, and the picture. Great discussion. You are my teachers. best Mike Canaday

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Hi Again I was comparing this Shigetsugu to my Okimasa. There are similarities and differences. Of course Okimasa could have altered his style as he did many times and he does look like his teacher as you would expect.

Could my sword be a Okimasa in sheep clothing? Maybe.

I am sticking with what is written on the mei. With a painting the signature is not as important as the overall work. Every brush stroke is a signature. The signature much more easy to fake than the overall work.

I guess swords are the same.....yes mei is important, but the sword must be overall consistant. Like I just read someones advice recently (cannot remember who, online on a sword forum about Ebay Sadakatsu) judge the sword for whats above the habaki.

 

Best

Mike

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According to Clive Sinclair's article, The story of the different scripts, was told to him by Shigemasa. According to John Slough, Shigemasa left Shigetsugu's forge in 1932.

I have a Shigetsugu with Soshu script, made in 1938. This sword recieved NTHK Kanteisho origami.

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Ted did you or Bob Benson discuss this matter with him....do you know?

 

I didn't speak with him about it, and I don't know if Bob did or not either. My inclusion of Clive's quote wasn't meant to dispute or refute his information. I have great respect for him, his knowledge, experience, and accomplishiments. I included it in the interest of compare and contrast when there exist examples that fall outside the contemporarily accepted norm. As Dr. Compton wrote, "...the variations are infinite and the generalizations are full of exception". I've personally experienced encountering information in a tangible signed example that surprised the decendants of a line of smiths, and answered some previously unanswered questions. The borders in this field are constantly examined and challenged and especially in Gendaito when more information comes to light, more examples are put into better polish, and previously unknown makers are discovered.

 

Ted I will change the brother in law, son in law comment. Sorry for my poor writing and spelling. It is hard to hang with all you professional writers and experts. If I had to edit and spell check.....I would never get this posted.

 

No worries Mike! As the proverb goes; "No fish live in pure water". If we waited for any publication to be perfect, I think we'd have darned few things to read. :lol: The publication for the Gendai exhibit was intended as an informal one. Bob and I put the whole thing together in about six weeks. Even after we both went over it a couple times, I found a few small errors that I'll fix in the future.

 

 

Great discussion. You are my teachers. best Mike Canaday

 

My pleasure to share where I can. We're all students standing on the shoulders of the giants before us, or even among us. I'm happy to be involved in such a wonderful art among some great folks.

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Thanks David, The Shigetsugu daisaku habits gets even more confusing. There is no doubt that both mei styles are papering Shigetsugu.

I would like to have been a fly on the wall for the Shigemasa......Sinclair confession. I guess you have to take both of them at there word. Who am I to question.

Where is Clive when you need him? Clive If your out there.....weigh in here. I know you have better things to do. I hope you are writing another one of your fastastic books.

If Shigemasa was not there at the time (maybe he was,maybe not) who is to say. Just a bunch of unanswered questions.......I guess unless you were hanging around the forge that day, best not to speculate to hard.

Let the sword in hand answer for itself. I have not enjoyed typing this much in a while.

 

Best

Mike

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Thanks Ted, I know Clive is a awesome researcher, author, and a Nihonto patran saint. I am a big fan....and just cannot get enough. I know he is dedicated to the facts.

Besides the actual swords themselves..........the general class and high quality that surrounds this hobby at the highest level is remarkable in todays unfortunate "burn as you go culture". It is what is so attractive to me.

Ron Polansky sold me my first sword......a mint,mounted, Emura (wish I still had it) and I will never forget the pleasant experience. It was sold to me in a kind nurturing way. The deal,sword,and Ron just compelled me to my next piece for study. I have been on the path ever since.

Since then I have been fortunate to deal wih people like Bob Benson, Fred Weissberg, Aoi art, Walter Seton, and Darcy Brockbank ect. Speak to countless others and study Sinclair and Slough ect.

I know it is not all roses, but it has been great for me, I have not stepped on any snakes in the grass yet.

 

As you know.......it is a great hobby for many and a life for some.

 

Best

Mike

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Hi Bruno, I am sure it is in original polish. There is no telling who polished his swords. Who ever the Japanese person that polished it did a great job. I say person because during WW2 era......women did the polishing too. Like at the Yasukuni shrine.

The sword looks like it was made yesterday showing all its forging detals.

 

Best Mike

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My information regarding Kasama Shigetsugu and his mei comes from several sources:

 

-A Tokyo sword dealer who was a personal friend of Kasama's and visited his workshop regularly during the war.

 

- Tsukamoto Okimasa's nephew, who is a sword polisher in Fukushima.

 

-Shibata Mitsuo, well known sword dealer who knew Kasama.

 

-Miyaguchi Toshihiro's (student of Kasama) son.

 

-Various war era sword publication.

 

Kasama had, if I remember correctly, arthritis in his shoulder that made swinging a heavy hammer difficult for him. As a result, he turned over the forging and hi-zukuri work to his students in the later 1930's onward. I also heard that he may have had a stroke at some point and had some paralysis, but I don't recall ever being able to confirm this. In any case, the personal anecdotes from his friends and relatives, and literature sources, all agree that the sosho mei was used, beginning in the later 1930's, to indicate the blade was a daisaku. He was still more than capable with a chisel thus the mei and horimono work when seen are still well done.

 

Kasama had many students, the best and most well known were Miyaguchi Toshihiro, Sakai Shigemasa, and his son-in-law, Tsukamoto Okimasa (who married his step-daughter, which is a funny story I will relate another time). Which, if any, of these three may have made your sword is something that would need to be researched with the sword in hand.

 

Daisaku blades still paper to the signee, so there is no reason any sosho mei blade properly made and signed by Kasama, should not receive origami,

 

Clive and I corresponded during the writing of his article and thus some of the information he related came from me. I also published a rather lengthy article many years ago in the JSS-US Newletter about Kasama which has served as a primary source for many who have written something since about him . At that point, there was some confusion over whether or not the sosho mei represented daisaku work exclusively. In years subsequent to the publishing of that article I did in fact receive corroborating reports that made it clear that indeed the sosho mei was done to indicate a daisaku work.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that yours is a daisaku. That doesn't mean it isn't a very nice sword.

 

And to set the record straight, some of the "research" you read on dealer sites (like those you reference above) and used to sell their swords is actually plagiarized from articles I have written and used without permission.

 

Hope that sheds a little more light on the topic.

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According to Clive Sinclair's article, The story of the different scripts, was told to him by Shigemasa. According to John Slough, Shigemasa left Shigetsugu's forge in 1932.

I have a Shigetsugu with Soshu script, made in 1938. This sword recieved NTHK Kanteisho origami.

 

 

I believe some of the info that Clive obtained was from Takebana Shigehisa, a student of Shigemasa, rather than from Shigemasa. Shigemasa was deceased I believe by the time of Clive's article (at age 90 in 1995). Clive will correct me if I am wrong.....

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Thanks Chris, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain both issues of the polish and the daisaku issues.

I am very pleased with the Shigetsugu reguardless of student involvement.

It is interesting that a sensi will paper an older sword daisaku in a second, were in this case Shigetsugu never papers that way,when the judges clearly must know these facts. Why? Am I missing something.

I know that Sadakatsu made many of his fathers swords in later times but they all paper to Sadakazu.I know they signed the same way and their work is hard to defferentiate.

I own a late special order, mounted, papered Sadakatsu made in 41. Is it known if his son forged and signed for him too? Or did Sadakatsu forge to the end? I would like to know. The shirasaya is signed and made by his son.

In school I learned always to site my sources..........I would hope people would afford you credit for YOUR words. Teachers would fail you in a second and they had high tech software to identify non original work.....and the program works really good. A sword dealer especially should get your perrmission.....they are making money

Again thank you for your help and I have the deepest respect for you as well.

 

Best Mike C

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You are most welcome.

 

When it comes to issuing kantei-sho, a sword made by a student and signed by the teacher is always papered to the teacher as if it were a complete work of the teacher. It is never noted on the origami that the work is a daisaku (at least I have never seen one so listed)....

 

Most famous smiths, in their later years when they have students, have many daisaku works. Some more than others. In Sadakatsu's case, most of his later work, if what I have been told by one of his former students who was there at the time, was made by students. No doubt he still made one here or there, but by and large, a smith in charge of a workshop with many students is an administrator with many responsibilities outside of swordmaking. Additionally, it is very tough, physical work; when advancing in age, it is only natural that production would decrease. Think about the mechanic that starts a shop, is successful, and hires several mechanics. How many cars does he actually work on? He spends most of his time training, meeting customers, tending to the business, etc.,-not turning wrenches.

 

As for plagiarism, not much one can do about it but ask that it be removed or credit given. Which I have done, to no avail....Some people are simply _____________ (fill in your favorite derogatory appellation here).....

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Thanks Chris, Do you still have that Masamitsu for sale.....with the cutting test. It is very nice. I also like your Yasuaki wak. With the Japanese two sword monthly forging limit, everyone is making katana. It is nice to see an ocassional wak by a gendai smith, sticking with tradition. Rare.

As far as Sadakatsu I can only remember one wak he made and I think it was his first signed blade in his name and prensented to someone important. Have your ever seen one?

 

Best

Mike

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Most of the swords on my site were sold long ago....Building a house and having a son have kept me way too busy the last few years...I hope to update it with new things this winter...

 

Yes, wakizashi by gendai tosho are rather rare, though I have seen a few war era wakizashi (including one by Kasama). Don't recall one by Sadakatsu but no doubt he made at least a few.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Everyone,

 

This topic has been a very good read on a slow Sunday. I remember this fine sword at the Gendai Nihonto NBTHK/AB exhibit at the Tampa show in 2011. The horimono of Fudo-O and bonji on the omote and the hatahoko on the ura side was just wonderful as well. I am also really enjoying the write up done about the Nihonto in note give out to NBTHK members and attendees. :)

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

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  • 9 months later...

Revisiting an old thread here ;)

 

Chris might correct me on this. I believe many Shigetsugu daisaku blades were forged by his students and yakire done by Shigetsugu and signed by him. In my opinion Shigetsugu's better quality swords were forged by his best student Okimasa and to me they are in no way inferior, if not better, to his kaisho mei when he forged the blade all by himself before his disability.

 

I have seen a Shigetsugu with sosho mei but look rather different than one that I own, clearly made by another hand and far inferior.

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Tsukamoto was a very talented smith and certainly a blade forged by him and finished by Kasama would not be inferior to one completely made by Kasama alone.

 

Not sure if one could absolutely identify who forged a Kasama sosho mei daisaku as there were several talented smiths doing them during the late 1930's/early 1940's....

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In my view a sword that involve collaborations, in the case of forging and yakire done seperately by two craftsmen, are gassaku.

In Shigetsugu's case he is the overall charge and his students were contributing their efforts to their teacher. Not surprisingly Shigetsugu's reputation as the number one swordsmith increased in the 1940s even when he was suppose to stop forging swords. Kurihara Akihide also finishes the work of his best students and put his name on it.

 

Clive's sword signed not with sosho but his block style mei also made me believe Shigetsugu may not have completely stopped making swords but probably taken him longer to make a sword all by himself after Showa 12 or 13 restricting it to a very few special orders from dignitaries.

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I've had this discussion with Clive about his sword and there would seem two likely scenarios to explain the kaisho mei on his sword which is dated well after Shigetsugu is said to have left the forging to his students and signed in sosho mei: the sword was made earlier and signed later (smiths often have a few blades around that need finishing) or, since it was a rather important commission, he gutted it out and did the forging.

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I had the previlage of personally viewing Clive's sword and it was a day that stays in my mind because it was the first time I met Clive and also there in front of me a relic that belong to the personal collection of someone who changed world history.

At the time I commented along the line of discovering a missing Van Gogh :)

 

It must have been 1998 I was an early adopter of digital cameras so with Clive's permission I took a few pictures of it.

I've not shown it to anybody since but I found them again recently. Hope Clive don't mind me putting a couple of low rez photos up on here.

BTW in case anyone is wondering the sword is on top of a glass display case.

 

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