Question about gimei and shinsa

[cabowen]

Oh, sorry. It was in the photos I posted earlier so I assumed you meant the tanto.

 

The wakizashi's nagasa is 13".

 

At 13". I would be more apt to call it an o-tanto or sunnobi tanto since it is longer than josun, rather than a wakizashi.

[bigjohnshea]

Interesting... I thought anything in the 12"-24" range was called a wakizashi.

Thank you for that, Chris.

[cabowen]

legally, yes, but when they are around the cutoff, they are usually called as above. Wakizashi isn't wrong, just that sunnobi-tanto is perhaps more often used on a blade of this period and length.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

FWIK Josun means the standart lenght of swords for a given period not the extreme lenght.

 

Useful reading :

 

http://www.buildingthepride.com/faculty ... of_wak.htm

[bigjohnshea]

I have bookmarked that site. Can't wait to read through it all!

 

Thank you, both.

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

FWIK Josun means the standart lenght of swords for a given period not the extreme lenght.

 

Useful reading :

 

http://www.buildingthepride.com/faculty ... of_wak.htm

 

 

I fail to see where anyone said anything about jo sun meaning an "extreme length".

 

Your cited reference mentions nothing about jo sun, but it does say:

 

"V. The Legal Classification of Nihon-to in Modern Japan:

 

(b) wakizashi - to be longer than 30cm (including so called "sun-nobi tanto") but shorter than 60cm;"

 

and:

 

"...what collectors and scholars of Nihon-to *formally* call "sun-nobi tanto" based on the classification b) above is *legally* classified by the Ministry of Justice in Japan today as "wakizashi" based on their lengths..."

 

 

And Nagayama Kokan mentions:

 

"...many hira-zukuri and sunnobi tanto (longer than jo sun) were produced..."

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I fail to see where anyone said anything about jo sun meaning an "extreme length".

 

 

It is not what is suggested below ?

 

At 13". I would be more apt to call it an o-tanto or sunnobi tanto since it is longer than josun, rather than a wakizashi.

 

 

And Nagayama Kokan mentions: "...many hira-zukuri and sunnobi tanto (longer than jo sun) were produced..."

 

Nagayama says page 340 : JOSUN : Standart lenght, in the case of swords, about 70cm, in the case of tanto, about 26cm.

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

It is not what is suggested below ?

 

"At 13" I would be more apt to call it an o-tanto or sunnobi tanto since it is longer than josun, rather than a wakizashi."

 

No.

 

 

 

Nagayama says page 340 : JOSUN : Standart lenght, in the case of swords, about 70cm, in the case of tanto, about 26cm.

 

 

13" is longer than 26cm and thus, it is longer than jo sun.

 

What is the problem?

 

Jacques, your constant nit picking of every comment I make is at turns both flattering and creepy.

[sanjuro]

Jacques, your constant nit picking of every comment I make is at turns both flattering and creepy.

 

Concur.

 

For those of us following the thread, the constant carping becomes rather tedious. More threads than this one have become hard to maintain interest in because of it.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Mister Bowen,

 

You said

 

I would be more apt to call it an o-tanto or sunnobi tanto since it is longer than josun, rather than a wakizashi.

 

 

Now You say :

 

13" is longer than 26cm and thus, it is longer than jo sun

 

 

The problem is that 13" nagasa is a wakizashi not a tanto, and josun for wakizashi is not 26cm. that sentence is a nonsense nothing else.

 

As i know you always want having the last word i let you it.

[cabowen]

Getting creepier....

 

Read your own citation. Then reread what I have written. If you still don't understand, perhaps you can find someone with a better command of English to explain it to you.

[bigjohnshea]

Gentlemen,

 

Hope you have all been well since we last discussed this.

 

So I submitted this sword to the NTHK Sinsa this past month in Florida. It failed shinsa due to the gimei (which was to be expected) but an attribution was made to Echizen Shimosaka around 1650.

 

So I have a follow up question:

 

Is the smith who made this sword related to the Yasutsugu school? I have ben reading this article and it mentions Yasatsugu's first signature being Echizen ju Shimosaka. Would this have been made by a student of the Yasutsugu school?

 

http://www.nihonto.com/abtartyasutsugu.html

 

Cheers,

[cabowen]

John-

 

Read Nagayama Kokan's book, or another that discusses the lineage for the Yasutsugu smiths and the Echizen Shimosaka group. The quick answer is that Yasutsugu was from Echizen and there is indeed a connection between the Yasutsugu line and the Shimosaka smiths. Your blade was judged to be made in the style of the Shimosaka group. Research this group from more info.

[bigjohnshea]

Thank you, Chris.

I have his Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords. I'll have to find the one you mentioned.

Cheers,

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Yasutsugu is from Shimozaka in Omi. He moved later to Echizen.