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Question about gimei and shinsa

bigjohnshea

By bigjohnshea
in Nihonto

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cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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The blade has had its share of polishing and abuse, but it would still take another polish in all likelihood. There is still a hamachi present and it is most likely maru-gitae meaning you will not expose core steel from polishing. I wouldn't call it tired quite yet.

 

The horimono maybe a later addition to cover forging flaws, some of which is visible towards the tip of the blade. They appear to be cut rather shallow.

 

Bottom line is this is not a high quality item and you may find the money for polishing better spent elsewhere.

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bigjohnshea Experienced

bigjohnshea

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Thank you both for giving your opinions.

 

Chris,

I was thinking that that Horimono might have been added around the same time the Mei was added. It seems that many of Masamune's swords have Horimono like these, and perhpas that was part of the intended ruse by whoever added them. I have no reasons other than suspicion to support that.

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  • 2 months later...
bigjohnshea Experienced

bigjohnshea

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Chris,

I don't think I speak that language yet. :-) If you have a moment could you expand on your thoughts? A friend of mind seems to think it is from the Muromachi period.

 

Lance,

I like it a lot more with the window polish as well. It seems like he polished nearly the entire region in front of the horimono. The first photo shows the transition from polished to unpolished regions just before the horimono.

 

 

Thank you again to everyone who contributed to this thread, and in doing so, to my knowledge.

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cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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According to Jacques, the sword was tired and not worth a polish as it would only "make it more tired". I think the photos clearly show the blade took well to the work done and that it is not tired. It does indeed look to be Muromachi/later koto to me.

 

It may not be Juyo, but it isn't a tired piece of worn out steel either....I would say congrats on a nice rescue....If the spurious mei was removed, it would in all likelihood pass shinsa with ease.

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peterqu Enthusiast

peterqu

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Hello John,May I just caution you about considering all of the merits of submitting this blade for shinsa before you do so.For starters the cost compared to the added value of papers should be considered.If you submit the blade to the NBTHK and the signature is found to be gimei you are faced with making a decision about the return of the sword or having the gimei removed and the nakago repatinated.Don't assume any polisher can do a decent job which is not a constant reminder that the nakago has been tampered with.Once the gimei is removed it is then necessary to have the blade re-registered as mumei before a re -submission to shinsa and all the time the costs are adding up .At the end of the day you will have a mumei wakazashi possibly with an attribution to some lowly rated group where your costs far outweigh the enhanced value resulting from the papers.By the way reliable agents are now charging 40000 yen for handling fees in and out of Japan and that increases with each necessary exercise.Regards,

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bigjohnshea Experienced

bigjohnshea

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Peter,

Thank you for the time it took to write that lengthy explanation. I'm sure I am not the only one who will benefit from your willingness to share your experience.

 

Now that there seems to be a building consensus that it is not of the same period as Masamune, I have every intention of having the gimei removed by the polisher. That being said, honestly I think my interest in Nihontos right now is more in appreciating and learning from them than finding out how much they're really worth and reselling them. So I'm not planning to submit it for Shinsa right now. Someday maybe.

 

I intend to restore it so that I can enjoy it, and to keep collecting. Hopefully my budget for swords will expand along with my knowledge. Hopefully that will result in my having bigger and better things to submit to Shinsa in the future.

 

 

Thank you again, Chris.

 

 

Edit: Although I must add, it would be really nice to know who made it, or at least have an idea. Someday maybe. :-)

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bigjohnshea Experienced

bigjohnshea

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Jacques,

The polisher said similarly that he thought the blade looked very tired in some places, and I assume he was also thinking of the region you posted an image of.

 

Regardless of the course I have chosen to go in with this blade I truly appreciate your input concerning it. Thank you again.

 

I have a follow up question concerning your statement about the possibility that it is maru-gitae.

 

How can we discern just by looking at the exterior of the blade if something is maru-gitae or kobuse-gitae, etc. etc?

 

I only ask because I am holding in my hand a tanto I bought not long ago made by a Mukansa swordsmith and frankly I have no way of telling whether or not I am looking at all one piece of steel, 2 pieces, or 4 pieces?

 

How do you distinguish them simply by observing the blade?

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runagmc Mentor

runagmc

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John, sometimes a multi-piece construction can be seen where harder steel is making up the edge, and other quality steels makes up the rest. There are many different construction methods. The first picture shows some of them. The second picture shows a multi-piece construction (indicated by the red line) on an actual sword...

Also, I should mention that in many case you won't be able to tell what kind of construction was used..

Here is a link with helpful info, http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/construction.html post-2413-14196856847976_thumb.png post-2413-1419685685246_thumb.jpg

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bigjohnshea Experienced

bigjohnshea

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Franco,

Thank you for implanting the thought. I guess that had not occured to me because I was not under the impression my wakizashi was made to actually resemble a specific sword by Masamune, instead of just being a sword made by a swordsmith which later had a false signature added to it.

 

Is there something about this wakizashi that makes you think it is meant to be a replica of a famous sword?

 

Adam,

Thank you for those images. I have a similar image to the first one, although not with nearly as much detail. I'll be sure to add it to my folder. As for the second image, I believe I have actually seen that vague line of steal particles showing up on other swords I've seen and not known what it was. Thank you for that.

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cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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Short blades are most often made of one piece, called maru-gitae. That means they don't have core steel which can be exposed when over polished. Sometimes rough areas of forging can be mistaken for core steel, leading one to believe a sword is tired.

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Jamie Experienced

Jamie

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Tough questions:

 

I have an excellent example.

I have a ken Tanto signed Unsho

The work is early, and bizen.

I have had two high level collectors, and a properly fully Japanese trained polisher look at this blade. They all agreed it should go to shinsa and all three thought it would more than likely pass.

It was sent to Nthk and got a pink slip- they said masahide school

Deemed gimei

This a few choices

Leave it and enjoy studying blade

Resubmit

Remove Mei, and resubmit.

 

My choice is going to be to resubmit- but it's risky.

If I do this, and it fails again I will absolutely be more invested than I can get back from this blade. This time I am submitting it to nbthk though.

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nagamaki - Franco Veteran

nagamaki - Franco

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Franco,

I was not under the impression my wakizashi was made to actually resemble a specific sword by Masamune, instead of just being a sword made by a swordsmith which later had a false signature added to it.

 

Is there something about this wakizashi that makes you think it is meant to be a replica of a famous sword?

 

Hi John, from what I'm seeing it appears to be and meant to be another Masamune 'replica', leaving the question of what does it become with the mei removed. In other words does it have merit, quality, to stand on its own, or is it better to just leave it be as a replica?

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raiden Proficient

raiden

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I have an excellent example.

I have a ken Tanto signed Unsho

The work is early, and bizen.

I have had two high level collectors, and a properly fully Japanese trained polisher look at this blade. They all agreed it should go to shinsa and all three thought it would more than likely pass.

It was sent to Nthk and got a pink slip- they said masahide school

Deemed gimei

This a few choices

Leave it and enjoy studying blade

Resubmit

Remove Mei, and resubmit.

 

My choice is going to be to resubmit- but it's risky.

If I do this, and it fails again I will absolutely be more invested than I can get back from this blade. This time I am submitting it to nbthk though.

 

 

Why don't you send us an oshigata of the mei and we can take it to Japan to check? Don't remove it just yet. My opinion only however.

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Jacques D. Grand Master

Jacques D.

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Hi,

 

John,

 

How do you distinguish them simply by observing the blade

 

Very difficult, many times it is impossible to see. If shinogi-ji is pure masame and ji itame it is laminated.

 

How long is your sword ? Tanto are mostly maru gitae but wakizashi are mainly made in kobuse or makuri particularly those made late Muromachi.

 

About tsukurikomi, some seem fanciful like Soshu kitae (which was never used by Masamune).

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bigjohnshea Experienced

bigjohnshea

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Franco,

I'm having trouble finding a Masamune wakizashi with the same features as my gimei, but I guess there's no reason to think it might not have been modeled after one of his blades or made to resemble his work in general. Regardless, it was not made by Masamune, so I think the mei does not belong there without the smith's mei and an attribution from him to Masamune.

 

Jamie,

Thank you for your story. I hope that the whole process works out in your favor. If you have some images of the blade I'd love to see them. Sounds like a wonderful sword.

 

Jacques,

Thank you for the info.

My tanto is by Yoshindo Yoshihara with a nagasa that is 23.5cm, and it is made in osoraku-tsukuri shape with itame jitetsu.

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