Question about gimei and shinsa

[bigjohnshea]

Dear Sirs,

In your opinion, if you have a sword with what you suspect is a gimei, should you remove the mei before shinsa, or is it better to risk failing shinsa and then resubmit if need be with the gimei removed?

 

I only ask because it seems like it would be a shame to remove a true mei when you are uncertain, and in doing so possibly do more harm than good.

 

Thank you for your time.

Hope you are all having a great weekend.

[paulb]

Hi John,

There are many stories of mei being removed only to have the sword later attributed to the smith concerned after the event.

It has been suggested that you should always obtain two or three attributions before thinking of having a mei removed.

It depends who you submit the sword to. The NBTHK will either pass or fail a a sword but if it is gimei they will not tell you who they think made it. When the NTHK fail a sword as gimei they will give an indication of who, or which school may have made it.

I would certainly think very carefully before removing signatures and certainly would not do so based on a single opinion/appraisal.

best Regards

Paul

[cabowen]

Removing a mei is always a last resort after careful consideration and consultation with experts. Unless it is completely obvious (Masamune or the like), it is usually best to submit to at least two different shinsa before the radical procedure of removal is considered. Once removed, it can't be added back so it is better to err on the side of caution.

 

I see Paul beat me to it....Basically, what he said...

[bigjohnshea]

Chris and Paul,

Thank you for the advice.

 

Given the content of Chris's response, I suspect I should have just been clear in the original question about what I was dealing with. Please chalk that up to my lack of overall experience in this realm.

 

I recently bought a wakizashi from a reputable dealer that is a Soshu school blade, and it is signed Masamune. I have not been collecting for more than a few years, but I have been reading up enough to know that Masamune's signature is the most forged signature in this business.

 

I honestly have no real reason to think this is a true Masamune, but the blade is pretty badly stained and I have had it shipped to the polisher who will polish a window out of it. Hopefully we can get a better look at the details of the blade when that is done. I will be happy with having it in my collection just knowing that it originated from that school, or perhpas from the Kamakura period, but I do intend to submit it to shinsa. The only reason I'm having the window polished right now instead of the full blade is because I'm currently restoring another blade, and paying off another blade, and don't have the money for it right now.

 

It has been suggested by the seller, who is well known in this arena, that I should remove the mei before any submission to shinsa. They were not however willing to make any statements in favor or against the possible authenticity of the mei, particularly given the condition it is in now. My gut reaction to this suggestion is that it would be better to get the blade ready for shinsa, and submit it with the current mei, and if they reject it as a gimei, I will kiss my wasted money goodbye, and resubmit with the mei removed.

 

Given this new information, would you suggest another approach?

 

Many thanks for you time.

 

 

PS. I suspect this may be a story you have all heard an amature collector recount in the past, so please feel free to tell me that I'm just being a total newbie and should hit the road.

[cabowen]

If you are using a professionally trained polisher, I would be asking his advice as he has both the knowledge and advantage of having the blade in his hands. If you are not using a professionally trained polisher and can not rely on his knowledge and experience, then you have made a big mistake.

[bigjohnshea]

Thank you again, Chris.

[Veli]

Hi John!

Just a general note... we should remember that throughout the history there were a couple of dozen smiths signing Masamune 正宗. So if you are lucky, you may have a legit mei, even a valuable one, instead of a gimei of the most legendary smith. Thus, erring on the side of caution is always the best!

 

Veli

[bigjohnshea]

Thank you for your advice, Veli. I will be happy just to have it cleaned up and in my collection.

 

I have a slightly off topic question:

 

I have read the opinions of more knowledgeable men than myself, that there are no more swords by Goro Masamune to be found. Has every sword made by the man been accounted for already? Is there no chance others could exist? Why would this position be held by dealers and collectors?

 

Here is the reason why I ask. I never used to believe that things like "one of a kind" collectible items existed outside of museums and private collections owned by billionares; that was until one day I bought a rare book at an estate sale which was printed during the late Renaissance. I had bought it because it had an original pig skin binding that was very ornately decorated, but I had no idea who the author was. As it turns out, this book is the collected works of a well known Renaissance philosopher, and as far as any professional I have consulted with can tell me, there is not another one like it that exists.

 

My point is, I learned a while ago that the world is not so large that it will prevent truly rare and beautiful things from ending up in the hands of fools like me. :-)

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I will be happy with having it in my collection just knowing that it originated from that school, or perhpas from the Kamakura period

 

Is this sword shinogi zukuri ? and what's the nagasa ?

[bigjohnshea]

Jacques,

Here are the only two photos I have of it now. I am waiting for more to arrive.

It appears to be Shobu Zukuri, and I'm afraid I do not have the dimension of the Nagasa.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

It's not a Kamakura sword, very likely a Muromachi one and far from the best..

[bigjohnshea]

If it is from the Muromachi period, that is just as wonderful to me as if it were from the Kamakura period, Jacques.

Thank you for taking the time to look at it for me, and I truly appreciate the candor.

 

I would love to hear other opinions if anyone has an interest in expressing them. Please do not be worried about offending me. I would rather hear what people have to say and learn from it.

 

Sorry I do not have better photos right now.

[Jean]

Shobu zukuri, late Muromachi (16th Century), probably Mino. Need a good polish as to see the quality of the forge. I'll say average and a real chopper

[bigjohnshea]

Thank you, Jean.

 

So I think I understand why it would be from the Muromachi, not the Kamakura period. (is it because of the sori?)

But how did you distinguish it as from the Mino provence? Was that just based on the number of blades that came out of that region?

[Mark]

John

 

a lot of books help understand how the shape of a sword changed through time. If Kamakura you would expect it to be smaller/shorter and uchizori or no sori, big wide blades, sort of like this were made in nambukcho but they would be thinner and have little sori, so by process of elimination you can say it is Muromachi as there were a blades of this shape made then

[bigjohnshea]

Thank you, Mark.

 

I appreciate all the information everyone has given me. I'll be happy to post more photos when I get them, and I would enjoy reading and learning from more opinions whenever people have time to give them.

 

Thanks again.

[Lance]

From the pictures it looks like it might hira zukuri (flat on both sides) or kata kiriha zukuri ? (Flat on one side with ridge following along the cutting edge)

 

1st pic, there appears to be glare off one of the lines cut in a horimono of a ken instead of a shinogi.

2nd pic, the light makes that side look like the shinogi follows along the edge?

 

http://meiboku.info/guide/form/zukuri/index.htm

 

I don't see any ridge in the nakago, so I'd guess the shape was one of the two mentioned above, any sword that has a shinogi usually follows all the way through the to the end of the tang, probably need clearer pictures.

 

Regards,

Lance

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

In your opinion, if you have a sword with what you suspect is a gimei, should you remove the mei before shinsa, or is it better to risk failing shinsa and then resubmit if need be with the gimei removed?

 

To reply to the initial answere, if the mei is obviously gimei (such as this one below), you had to remove it to pass a shinsa.

 

If you have a big doubt you may let it and try a shinsa. If it turn to be gimei then you could remove and resubmit to shinsa. But you could also save money by don't removing a (gi)mei, don't submitting the sword to shinsa and using this money to buy good books

 

Sebastien

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

If Kamakura you would expect it to be smaller/shorter and uchizori or no sori,

 

 

In fact wakizashi with a shinogi didn't exist before the early Muromachi. Wakizahi even uchigatana were found in Kamakura era but they are hira-zukuri.

 

I would add for what i see, this blade doesn't deserve a polish and a submission to shinsa.

 

Lance,

 

Have a look at the second picture.

[Brian]

To answer one of the earlier questions: While anything is possible...remember that the top swords have been recognised and documented for many hundreds of years. Most of them passed down through generations of high level rulers and families, and have been published and recorded. The chances of a new "out of the woodwork" sword appearing that no-one knew the existence of, is almost nil imho. At least when talking about the top names like Masamune.

Even the lost treasure swords are described and known about. I don't think the NBTHK would easily paper a top name like that without considerable research.

All moot really..since yours isn't by "The" Masamune as much as we would all love it to be. Doesn't even look Soshu to me.

As for whether it deserves a polish, only a polisher and/or window can tell you that. Depends on whether that is an opening we can see, and how big.

 

Brian

[bigjohnshea]

Brian, Sebastian, Jacques, and Lance,

Thank you each for making further additions to my knowledge.

 

I'm going to email the merchant I bought it from to ask for photos, again. I have been waiting for them for about two weeks now. Not sure why it's taking so long. I'm not asking for anything special, and I'm sure the window polish has not been done yet.

 

Jacques,

Perhaps it is my newbie mentality telling me this, but let's say the photos and window polish reveal nothing special, does the sword itself (being an antique) not deserve to atleast be cleaned up and given a polish that would atleast make it suitable to add to a humble collection such as my own? Perhaps I am too idealistic for my own good, but I would think we all would want to atleast do that for a blade that came from a culture that we all seem to admire. Regardless, I thank you for being willing to contribute to my knowledge.

 

With regards to books and learning from reading.

I am working on it, I promise. What is holding me back from learning faster is that right now I am a 36 year old medical school student. I was once an Architect, and so I have some financial resources that the average medical school student does not have, but one resource that is in short supply with me is free time. I will learn as much as I can, when I can, but free time is scarce for me.

 

BTW. If any of you ever need advice about how to build a house, add an addition to your home, perform tenant improvement on your office, etc. I'm happy to lend you my knowledge in the same way that you lend me yours here. :-)

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

For what i see, this sword needs to be entirely polished all its lines being distorted, this imply a huge amount of steel removed and this sword seems already tired. Keep in mind that a polish is never without effect on the health of a blade. That brings up the following question : Is this blade valuable enough to deserve a polish which is a big financial investment ?

[bigjohnshea]

Point well taken, Jacques.

Thank you again.

[Lance]

 

 

Lance,

 

Have a look at the second picture.

 

Hello Jacques,

 

What should I be looking at? The only thing I see after copying and zooming in on the picture in photo editing software is a worn ken horimono on a blade that looks to hira zukuri on that side?

(I do agree with not planning on a polish, especially considering the photo quality isn't really a basis to evaluate such an investment on)

Regards,

Lance

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

IMHO it's not a ken horimono.

[bigjohnshea]

I got some photos from the polisher who has this blade, but they are larger than the 1mb that is allowed to post on the thread.

 

Does anyone know of a quick way to reduce the image size, and hopefully not lose too much resolution?

 

I have a macbook pro, but I do not have any special image editing software.

 

Any thoughts?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

You can use imageshack or another like it.

[Brian]

John,

There must be tons of free photo editing softwares out there. I recommend that anyone with a pc has to have at least one installed. Many people use http://www.gimp.org/ which runs in Windows and Mac.

Most pics can be reduced to around 200k and still be large and good quality.

 

I also found these which can be done online without any software:

http://www.shrinkpictures.com/

http://www.picresize.com/

http://www.resizr.com/

http://resizepic.com/

These seem to be the best answer for those who are challenged when it comes to software

 

Brian

[bigjohnshea]

Thank you for the links.

 

If you genetlmen have time, please look at the photos and let me know what you think.

 

It seems that the blade is actually Hira Zukuri, with a Mune Hikushi, and I think it is an Omaru Boshi.

 

IMHO, I kinda like the blade now that I get a closer look at it. It's a bit more ornate than I originally thought.

 

(first 6, more coming)

[bigjohnshea]

6-12 few more coming