GENDAITO BY KIYOKATSU

[cabowen]

Well what do you know! For you Jacques, here is my former Okimasa, with star stamp and Hozon NBTHK kantei sho for sale on the web:

 

http://www.sabakusamurai.com/sale/consi ... orSale.htm

 

 

 

[Brian]

Jacques,perhaps you would like to explain the difference between an art saber and a simple weapon?Not a trick question,I just wondered if you realised that all Japanese swords were made as weapons and not as works of art and that the term 'art sword' was devised in the aftermath of WW2 (when thousands of swords of all types were destroyed by being shovelled into furnaces) in order to protect and conserve remaining swords as a part of Japan's cultural heritage.

No..we will not be debating that yet again. Any posts on "art swords vs weapons" will be deleted.

We have been down that road too many times.

With Chris' last post, there is really nothing new to add to this topic anyways...everyone knows about as much as they could know about this topic. So without actually locking it...any new posts better have something substantial to add, or they will merely be removed.

 

Brian

 

Btw - Someone please email them and ask for a pic of the origami so that we can settle this.

[Eric H]

"Star Stamp means Gendaito and Tamahagane"

 

(from The Art of the Japanese Sword : Leon and Hiroko Kapp - Yoshihara Yoshindo)

 

Eric

[cabowen]

It might have saved you some time if you had read through the complete thread. This is the same out of date (25 years old) info that Jacques posted.

 

I might come as a surprise to many, but 20 years ago when I discussed this topic at length with Yoshihara san, he had never heard of a star stamp, much less seen one. He also told me that his grandfather only made traditional blades. As I mentioned in this thread, he was quite surprised to see an oshigata of his grandfather's sword with a star stamp. He had no knowledge at that time of the RJT requirements. It is clear from the text of his book that the authors were simply repeating the dogma of the day. From Paul Martin's article on the Yoshihara family:

 

"By 1943 Kuniie had gone on to become a swordsmith instructor for the Japanese Imperial

Army at the Tokyo Dai Ichi Rikugun Zoheisho, the military arsenal in Akabane, Tokyo.

Here he chose to use yet another art name—Nobutake. His job was to train army smiths

and inspect and acquire swords made in the kanto region (Tokyo and surrounding areas).

The swords he made there are usually inscribed 'Tokyo Dai Ichi Rikugun Zoheisho

Yoshihara Nobutake’."

 

"Inspect and acquire swords" refers to his work with RJT.

 

 

 

[Eric H]

It is the newest edition from 2012 and significantly different to the first edition. Is it possible that the authors publish material that is not based on facts and is out of validity? If you are right and you have spoken at time to Mr. Yoshihara, why again these "facts"?... and btw I‘m not a supporter of Mr. Jacques theories.

 

Eric

[cabowen]

Besides the army documents reproduced previously, we have this from the Omura web site:

 

名古屋陸軍造兵廠関分工場長として軍刀製作の指揮を執った尾藤少佐は、受命刀匠が制式規格に則って作刀する刀身を「陸軍制式現代鍛錬刀」と回想記に記述している。この「現代鍛錬刀」が軍の制式名だった可能性がある。

 

この造兵廠に納入された刀身茎には、

①陸軍素材検査合格印の「星印」だけのもの　②「星印」と茎尻の方に番号刻印あるもの　③「星印」と茎棟に検査印のあるもの

④「星印」と小さい「関印」があるものなど多様。

 

受命刀匠指定前に作刀した物、受命刀匠期間中であっても、特殊な事情で造兵廠に納入せずに直接販売した物にはこれら検査印、番号刻印等は付かない。

 

茎裏に製作月日が切られていない刀は、受命刀匠規格刀であっても、造兵廠に一旦納められた刀ではない。

又、大切先であったり、反りが深かったり、重過ぎるなど、仕様書及び図面の指示する寸法規格の許容範囲を大きく逸脱した”規格外の刀”は造兵廠に納入されず直接刀剣商や将校に販売された。これらには星や番号の刻印は当然無い。

 

Which loosely translates as follows (my apologies in advance for any translation errors. Perhaps one of our Japanese members will correct them....):

 

"From Major Ofuji's * memoir entitled "Rikugun Seishiki Gendai Tanren To" (with the name "Gendai Tanren To" likely the Army's official name for swords supplied per Army requirements):

 

On the nakago of swords supplied (by RJT) to the Army there are:

1) those passing shinsa with only a hoshi kokuin (star stamp)

2) those with both a hoshi kokuin and a number near the nakago jiri

3) those with a hoshi kokuin and a shinsa mark on the nakago mune

4) those with the hoshi kokuin and a small stamp, such as a seki stamp, etc. (these are plentiful)

 

Swords that were submitted to the military before the RJT program, and in some special instances during the program that weren't accepted (sold directly, etc.) were not stamped.

 

Swords that had no date, despite fulfilling all other (RJT) requirements, were not accepted.

 

Blades that varied greatly from either the specifications (o-gissaki, sori too deep, too heavy) or drawings were classified as "Kigakugai no To" and were not accepted. These were sold directly to sword merchants or commissioned officers without any acceptance stamps applied.

 

 

*Head of the Seki branch of the Nagoya Rikugun Zoheisho (arsenal) and responsible for overseeing production of swords for the Army.

 

 

Ok, here is what I have:

 

1. The army documents as evidence that the RJT program required smiths accepted into the program to make swords in a traditional manner using traditional materials (that the army supplied) according to rigid specifications.

 

2. Evidence from Omura san's site that these swords were inspected and those that passed, were given a star stamp.

 

3. From this book:

 

 

軍刀組合始末　(Gunto Kumiai Shimatsu) (Gunto Association Management)

subtitled: —陸軍受命刀匠の周辺— (Rikugun Jumei Tosho no Shuen) (The World of the Rikugun Jumei Tosho)

 

Published by the Aizu Bunkazai Chosa Kenkyu Kai

 

Period records detailing the amounts of tamahagane, charcoal, etc., received and used by the smiths in this group, along with detailed records of the number and type of swords produced. There is also complete information on the testing and shinsa process conducted by the military.

 

4. The inclusion of all RJT into Homma and Ishii's Nihon-to Meikan, implying they were smiths who made Nihon-to.

 

5. Kantei-sho from multiple Japanese organizations signifying that star stamped blades are Nihon-to.

 

6. Personal accounts of former RJT wherein each related that they made traditional blades with tamahagane, that they were inspected, and that a star stamp was applied to those that passed.

 

So, to answer your question, yes, the authors are wrong in lumping star stamped blades in with non-traditionally made showa-to. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. I have no idea why Yoshihara san didn't update this, but it is clearly incorrect. If you or Jacques or anyone else has anything other than Kapp and Yoshihara, bring it....

 

 

PS- also from Omura's site:

 

"About "Seki" and "Shō" stamp

The demand of military swords has increased rapidly since the China incident in 1937. Since forging swords ran short, the "Shōwa sword" of the simple sword-making method was made in the Tōkyō suburbs. However, it is of inferior quality and was disreputable. The dealer in swords of Seki organized the "Seki Swords Dealer Association" in October, 1937 in order to put on the market the practical new work sword which is not inferior to an ancient rite forging sword in distinction from other swords.

The association all appealed for the new work Japanese sword produced from steel materials to the country and the prefecture that "Seki Cutlery Industrial Guild" inspects. The acceptable product was stamped with the "Seki" character on the swod-tang of a sword. Thereafter, acceptable product came to stamp the mark of "the character Shō in cherry blossoms" on instruction of the Department of the Interior. A "Shō" character is the abbreviated name for "Shōwa." This guarantees the quality of a practical use sword. Since it succeeded in Seki-chō making the quality of a practical use sword guarantee, most of all the sword demand has been monopolized.

 

This inspection mark is not stamped on the sword of a traditional manufacturing process."

 

From this it is apparent that the Seki and Sho stamps weren't use to differentiate non-traditional from traditional blades as claimed by Kapp and Yoshihara, but they served as an inspection and quality assurance for non-traditionally made swords. Also, it clearly states that these two stamps were not used on traditionally made swords with no mention of the star stamp.

[george trotter]

Eric,

Speaking on the accuracy of the information in the Yoshihara edition 2012 which you posted I can add a little more to Chris' comments.

Because of the knowledge posted on the meaning of the star stamp during the above thread, there is no doubt that the continued inclusion of the star stamp as an indicator of Showa-to in Yoshihara's book is outdated.

 

Yoshihara sensei took the marks from Fuller & Gregory's various books that pioneered the study of gendaito/showa-to in the west.

In actual fact, F & G 1986 listed the star p.81 (xviii) as "Unidentified", and in their later edition 1996 p227 (x) as "Military inspection and acceptance stamp. Believed to be associated with mill-steel gendaito..." . These are very vague statements which Yoshihara 2002 p.62 labelled as "Showa-to stamps" and has continued to retain them in 2012 even after the correct information has emerged.

 

The translation Chris has done from Ohmura's site about the placement of star stamps, dates, etc I also translated and posted here just before we changed to this present board format (2009?). I also got it from Ohmura's site and it was discussed here then too...so Ohmura's information has been accessible to Japanese scholars etc at least for 3 years before your Yoshihara reprint.

 

Not only did Yoshihara not up-date this portion of his book, but other information is emerging in the west about another stamp which he says is indicatiing showa-to.

In the drawings of stamps, look at the middle row, 2nd down you will see "matsu" in a circle.

F & G 1986 p.62 (xii) stated "Significance unknown", and 1996 p.226 (viii) stated "Significance Unknown". Yoshihara 2002 p.62 states

"Showa-to stamps" and so does his 2012 edition.

Because of my interest studying gendaito I feel confident to state the following: This matsu stamp has never been found on showa-to...so far it is ONLY on traditionally made swords by the Yamagami brothers of Niigata. Their names were Munetoshi and Akihisa. This stamp is found only on their nakagos. They were both RJT. I have seen this stamp on 4 of their star stamped swords and on 1 special order sword...all traditionally made....never anywhere else.

 

So, concerning these stamps (which do NOT indicate showa-to)...the knowledge presented by Ohmura, Morita and the scholars here is more accurate and up to date than Yoshihara.

I hope this helps.

 

regards,

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Well what do you know! For you Jacques, here is my former Okimasa, with star stamp and Hozon NBTHK kantei sho for sale on the web:

 

This sword is sold since a long time and origami is not visible.

 

4. The inclusion of all RJT into Homma and Ishii's Nihon-to Meikan, implying they were smiths who made Nihon-to.

 

That never means they made only Nihon-tô.

 

 

 

I must be more precise, i never say Star stamped swords cannot be true gendaito, i just say that according the Japanese law they are Showa-tô (stamped swords made during the WW2). It is false saying all star stamped swords are true gendaito even if it is possible (but not yet visually proved) some were awarded by NBTHK. Like said by Doctor Stein Each sword must be judged on its own merits.

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/gendai2.htm

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/showato.htm

 

Read here what says Kanefusa who was a WW2 smith:

 

http://imagesia.com/img-6787_2mx8

 

 

Star stamp just means the sword was made by a RJT and nothing else.

[Jean]

"......and traditionally made" as all the literature provided has stated.

 

.............................................................................................................

 

Everyone should have made up his mind by now, in light of these last posts. I consider the subject as closed, unless Brian wants to reopen it :D or that someone can post a RJT star stamped sword (not a fake one) not being traditionally made.