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GENDAITO BY KIYOKATSU


J Reid

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To the novice collectors :

This is an interesting post to read ! , however bear in mind : "A star stamp could be falsely added to the nakago at any time " Don't take the "Star " for granted ( You need to know what to look for ! ) - as the Senior members say " You need to be able to first be able to identify a traditionally made blade , do your research , be able to identify if the addition is original , otherwise Joe Blo on ebay with a stensil set will take you out with one hit that you never saw coming & be at the bar havin a drink at your expense ! "

All the Best !

Alan K

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Hi,

 

These show that a RJT sword MUST be traditionally made out of traditional material before they receive a star stamp of APPROVAL. So...please tell us how many of your swords have passed such a series of tests like those described in these regulations?...and please tell us how you can know this and how you can prove this?

 

Yes papers says, but does all RJT do ? Remember it was during a hard war time, i'm not sure all star stamped swords were perfectly made and carefully checked.

 

Interesting reading :

 

img-6787_imagesia-com_2mx8_large.JPG

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Hi,

 

 

Yes papers says, but does all RJT do ? Remember it was during a hard war time, i'm not sure all star stamped swords were perfectly made and carefully checked.

 

 

Jacques...the RJT swordsmith HAD to obey the instructions of the Army or he would not be issued tamahagane and charcoal. Remember in the instructions it says that swords will be taken at RANDOM and checked/tested, so the smith had to be sure ALL his swords were good. If he did dishonest things the inspector would refuse to stamp the sword with a star. It is always possible that the skill of RJT swordsmiths can vary (I have seen one or two that I did not admire) but if the quality of his craftsmanship is too low he will not get the contract to become RJT and if he becomes RJT but makes a poor quality sword, it will not get the star.

Of course, as collectors we know that "shady" people exist in the sword business and it is possible that a "shady" sword exists and a fake star stamp is made and added to a sword in recent years...but this is dishonest deception...this is why we always check the sword personally...but this dishonesty applies to all swords of all ages.

No-one is expecting you to believe these facts, but you asked for us to provide "proof" that a star means a traditionally made sword...we have provided the evidence of our eyes, our experience and the original documents and the shinsa papers showing nihonto.

 

So that we can understand how you judge (accept a sword is good nihonto), may I again ask you to answer my previous questions:

1. have you held a star stamped sword in your hand?

2. do you have swords capable of passing the tests that the RJT sword had to pass?

3. if so, how do you know your sword is capable to pass?

4. how do you prove this?

 

Regards,

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It is rather difficult to simply stamp any blade with a star and pass it off as RJT work firstly because we know who was and wasn't a RJT and secondly because the differences between a traditionally made blade and a typical western steel/oil quenched blade are well known at this point and can be identified in nearly all cases.

 

We know from the literature and first hand accounts that each RJT blade submitted to the military was inspected and some were pulled at random for testing- that is what the star means. The inspectors weren't desk jockeys, they were experts- Yoshihara Kuniie was one such inspector. We also know that the requirements were specific and rigorous.

 

The WWII era smiths I have spoken to, and I have spoken with many, all indicated that they were proud to have been able to make swords for their country. They took it as an almost sacred responsibility to protect the lives of their countrymen. Having lived in Japan for a long time, I know first hand how well rules and regulations are followed in Japan in comparison to other countries. Most Japanese I know almost seem to take pleasure in following rules. In any case, nationalism and pride aside, I have seen in hand uncountable star stamped blades without a single one I would call a showa-to. Thus, I feel comfortable in saying that star stamped showa-to are not common.

 

In the chaos that is war, is it possible that something non-traditional was snuck in? Absolutely. Was this commonplace? Hardly. All swords, regardless of age or maker, should be evaluated individually. One needs to know something of the smith and his reputation as well. I have been rather dismissive of Seki blades in the past due to the rather poor level of workmanship but it is also whispered that some in Seki weren't above cutting corners, as related above by Kanefusa. This is another reason.

 

Just because it is possible that a non-traditional blade may have passed inspection is hardly reason to throw the baby out with the bath water here. We know for a fact that RJT program was put in place to supply the army with traditionally made blades. We have copious period records of tamahagane and charcoal supplied to individual smiths and their production using these materials. We know RJT blades have passed NBTHK and NTHK shinsa. In the end, one always has the sword to evaluate. As in all things Japanese sword, we speak in generalities knowing that there are exceptions to every rule. Nothing new here.

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Many thanks to George for the following translation, and to Morita san for the original Japanese docs.

I have compiled these into a pdf article and will add to the articles section soon. These shed a lot of light on the subject. Th original Japanese specifications are followed by the English translation. Approx 4 megs big.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/articles/RJT_Info.pdf

 

Brian

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Many star stamped blades have passed NBTHK shinsa. See R. Stein's site for a list.

 

It would be very telling to know how many and for what reasons star stamped RJT blades have been submitted to NBTHK shinsa and rejected.

 

I have a few additional thoughts on this. I have handled many star-stamped RJT blades. Not as many as others, but enough to feel confident commenting (George has a nice Nakata Kanehide that passed through my hands once).

 

The star-stamped RJT blades I have handled all showed hada, hamon, and hataraki far surpassing oil-quenched showato. However, I debate if they deserve the bandwidth we give continuing to argue that point. I think the bigger question is where do they fit in the overall story of nihonto, not just WWII. Assuming most, if not all, star-stamped RJT blades are made from tamahagane with traditional methods, then I find them very average as compared to other nihonto.

 

I do not serve on Shinsa panels, but there is quite a departure between star-stamped RJT blades and Jo-Saku or better Nihonto I have handled. There really is not much comparison in my mind. I have yet to see a star-stamp RJT blade that I would call an art sword. Don't get me wrong, they are well-made and show varieties of hada, hamon, and hataraki, but I put them on the level with Chu-Saku workmanship. I've seen several Bishu Osafune Sukesada that outshined star-stamped RJT blades.

 

Ranking swords and swordsmiths is highly subjective, but Shinsa do it and we generally accept the variance that comes along with their assessments. While star-stamp gendaito may have achieved NBTHK Hozon papers, have any achieved Tokubetsu Hozon and if not, then why not? As I started, even more telling would be to look at the star-stamp RJT blades submitted and rejected by Shinsa and then understand why they were rejected. Were they rejected because Shinsa in 1980 did not recognize star-stamps? Were they rejected because Shinsa in 2010 did recognize star-stamps but were unimpressed with the workmanship? Were they papered because the Shinsa was impressed with the workmanship? I think exploring the workmanship of star-stamp RJT blades and considering them against workmanship shown by all nihonto and not just WWII-era Japanese swords would help a lot in Connoisseur's treatment of them.

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Brian, Morita san, and George - thanks very much for sharing the RJT specifications. :clap:

 

I found them quite interesting, including this little specification:

 

4. Hamon is optional but must be chu in width.

 

Who needs a hamon anyhow? :rotfl:

 

Also telling that the #1 specification and first criteria for judging is on a sword's ability to cut well and not break or bend. Polish and appearance were considered after that.

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Article 3. Drawings, instructions, and materials will be supplied for the purpose of correct manufacturing process.

 

Does anyone have any idea of the quality of tamahagane that the Japanese Government was supplying? Any specification documents for the tatara? I imagine the quality we see in RJT blades was heavily dependent on the quality of the raw ore.

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"Hamon style is unlimited, but must be medium in width..."

 

I agree and appreciate how small details can be different in translation. Kudos to the translator as the document is very informative.

 

Based on my handling of star-stamped RJT blades, I think I have seen many more with Bizen-themed choji hamon than other styles. I have seen some with suguha that had ashi and ko-ashi. I had a star-stamped Kaneaki that was Yamato-themed, all masame hada, and had a suguha hamon abundant with nijuba and uchinoke. I was most impressed with a star-stamped Kanehide that had a midare choji yet had another star-stamped Kanehide that was classic Seki gunome. I have yet to see an RJT blade with a Soshu-themed hamon showing copious and continuous nie, yubashiri, inazuma, etc but would not rule it out. I think there is a great variety of styles in star-stamped RJT blades.

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Matt,

 

Shinsa does not hesitate to issue papers for chu saku smiths, even for pieces of iron as long as they have no fatal flaws. As already stated by Kunitaro san, Hozon level does not guarantee the quality.

 

So if RJT blades are traditionally made, the reason of any rejection has to be found elsewhare.

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Shinsa does not hesitate to issue papers for chu saku smiths

 

Does Shinsa issue Tokubetsu Hozon for chu saku smiths? If not and if RJT blades have only achieved Hozon and not Tokubetsu Hozon, then what does that suggest about RJT workmanship relative to the broader, and older, landscape of Nihonto? Is there an age requirement on Tokubetsu Hozon (I don't know and am curious - I assume age requirement may be one reason RJT blades were not previously considered - I think age factors into treatment of Shinto and Shinshinto blades for higher papers). I would also be curious if other accepted gendaito swordsmiths like Yasukuni smiths, Okimasa, Shigetsugu, Toshihide, etc have achieved Tokubetsu Hozon or only Hozon? I think the Gassan smiths Sadakazu and Sadakatsu have achieved Tokubetsu Hozon, but how about the others?

 

So if RJT blades are traditionally made, the reason of any rejection has to be found elsewhare.

 

Does anyone have some Shinsa pink slip stories they would like to share?

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Sorry but I think it's rather simplistic to compare the work of RJT to nihonto in general,RJT worked within specifications set out by the Imperial Army and did not have a free hand in what they produced,the same situation applied to Yasukuni smiths.

You may not be impressed with their work in general but I am.I feel that they reflect the age in which they were created,they are real swords made to be carried into combat and there was immense pride in being involved with their production.

I have owned swords made by Horikawa Kunitake,Endo Nagamitsu and currently have a Taguchi Masatsugu and a stunning Kuniie,all of which are more dynamic,practical and appealing than some of the swords that I've owned or seen from earlier periods especially many 18th and early 19th century swords that were produced as items of commerce rather than real weapons.

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c. Edo period works by less famous smiths with mid or lower grade workmanship may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

 

Jean - is mid grade workmanship not the definition of chu saku? I understand this clarifies Edo period works, but the point is the same. I assume this rule would also apply to 'after Edo period' works as well.

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That was not your question Matt, yours was about chu saku smith getting TH papers :) this is possible for Koto swords

 

Nevertheless, your answer is here for last century swords:

 

5) Blades made in Meiji and Taisho periods, and those by recently deceased smiths, can receive Hozon paper only when the blade is well made, zaimei and has a ubu-nakago.

 

* Among blades that received a Hozon paper in item 5 above, that may be considered the maker's best quality, these may receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

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Sorry but I think it's rather simplistic to compare the work of RJT to nihonto in general

I disagree. If the debate is about whether RJT get NBTHK and NTHK papers and where they rank, then we should note that they are being compared to all nihonto in general as part of Shinsa.

 

You may not be impressed with their work in general

For WWII swords, I'm actually pretty impressed with some RJT blades, if not always by the quality of work then certainly by the variety they produced. They clearly experimented artistically rather than making uniform cutting implements. I think the two Kanehide I had surpassed the few Yasukuni I have also had, but that is just my opinion. I would add though that no RJT blade I have handled came close to superior Shinto or Shinshinto, much less Koto. I think that is my main point is that if we agree RJT blades are worthy of papering (and I think some are) then where do we consider them in comparison to all other nihonto. They do not exist in a historical vacuum.

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Jean - good point - thanks for pointing out. So,

 

5) Blades made in Meiji and Taisho periods, and those by recently deceased smiths, can receive Hozon paper only when the blade is well made, zaimei and has a ubu-nakago.

 

If this is the rule, and RJT blades are zaimei and ubu-nakago, and the smith is deceased, then if NBTHK rejects the blade it must be on the basis of it not being well-made, no?

 

* Among blades that received a Hozon paper in item 5 above, that may be considered the maker's best quality, these may receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

 

Have the best quality blades from Yasukuni smiths, Okimasa, Shigetsugu, Toshihide, etc just not been submitted yet? (I truly do not know if TH examples exist - if some do then I fall on my katana, and if they do not yet I am sure they will in the future when enough time and examples have passed by appraisers hands)

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Hi,

 

1. have you held a star stamped sword in your hand?

 

 

Yes, once and it was disappointed.

 

2. do you have swords capable of passing the tests that the RJT sword had to pass?

 

I own only koto and Shinto swords

 

3. if so, how do you know your sword is capable to pass?

 

Response above

 

4. how do you prove this?

 

Some are papered (Tokuho) others are not papered but easily recognizable.

 

 

If this is the rule, and RJT blades are zaimei and ubu-nakago, and the smith is deceased, then if NBTHK rejects the blade it must be on the basis of it not being well-made, no?

 

Those swords are WW2 military swords in other words Showa-tô so they are forbidden in Japan.

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The rating system being discussed here (chu saku, etc.) was not created by the NBTHK so there is no reason to insist that what the NBTHK considers worthy of TH has any correlation to the Fujishiro ranking. Even smiths not ranked by Fujishiro have been papered by the NBTHK. Also, every dog has his day, the saying goes, and certainly sometimes low ranked smiths made something excellent.

 

Surely nearly anything without fatal flaws will pass Hozon shinsa. There is no reason any star stamped blade, without fatal flaws and in good condition, unaltered, would not pass Hozon. If it passed the military inspection, there is not reason, as stated previously, why it should not pass Hozon.

 

As far as works by other gendai tosho, I have only heard of one that received TH, and that was a Gassan blade, and only one. I have seen some pretty spectacular work by the best smiths of the era receive only Hozon; it would seem that there is an unwritten policy by the NBTHK to not award anything higher at present. Surely this will change in the future. At some point there will be Juyo awarded to these blades, if enough time goes by,,,,

 

How do the RJT blades compare to blades of previous eras? Again, each blade is unique and such comparison are rather fun to debate but in practice it is difficult to make any hard and fast generalizations. I have seen junk from all periods, as well as excellent work.

 

Due to the quality of materials used, the examination process, and the shinsa, the blades on average produced by smiths in the RJT program are above average as a group in comparison to most others of the period. I have seen some that were so-so, and a few that were as good as anything you might see from any of the top smiths of the period. The best of them are the equal to Yasukuni, Minatogawa, Denshujo, or the like. As someone else has said, a good sword is a good sword, regardless of period.

 

They were the last of the traditionally made blades to be actually used in combat. Whether you choose to evaluate them against what came before or in the context of their creation, they are honest blades made with life or death purpose.

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The law forbids issuing torokusho for showa-to but the actual process and decision is in the hands of the local prefectural licensing shinsa; knowing some of these people personally, I know that they license showa-to on rare occasion. No process run by people is perfect.

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I'm having trouble reconciling this:

 

The law forbids issuing torokusho for showa-to but the actual process and decision is in the hands of the local prefectural licensing shinsa; knowing some of these people personally, I know that they license showa-to on rare occasion. No process run by people is perfect.

 

and this:

 

Having lived in Japan for a long time, I know first hand how well rules and regulations are followed

 

:glee:

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The best of them are the equal to Yasukuni, Minatogawa, Denshujo, or the like.

 

Well put. I agree.

 

There is no reason any star stamped blade, without fatal flaws and in good condition, unaltered, would not pass Hozon.

 

From your time in Japan and contacts still there, do you know if more star-stamped RJT blades - or other gendaito - are being submitted to NBTHK shinsa and what the pass/rejection rate is? It would be helpful to know if 100% pass, then I'm sure Western collectors would be well-primed to give NBTHK a lot of swords to look at.

 

Tsuruta san has a few papered Yasukuni blades for offer on his site. I wonder if Nagamitsu et al have received papers yet.

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I don't think there is any way anyone outside of the NBTHK would have any knowledge of the numbers submitted nor pass rate for any swords submitted.

 

Having said that, check R. Stein's site. I believe he has information on which smiths are known to have passed shinsa.

 

Like I said, they will all pass with my previous provisos.

 

I do not know if more are being papered but if you have a look around at the various dealer sites you can see there are many being papered. Not sure why people bother with papering gendaito but that is whole other topic.

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Not sure why people bother with papering gendaito but that is whole other topic.

 

For some like yasukuni-to, I think it is reassurance the signature is correct and not gimei. For others, maybe it is because papers justify the quality or enhance the appeal. I don't exactly know either. What made you decide to submit your Tsukamoto Okimasa?

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For some like yasukuni-to, I think it is reassurance the signature is correct and not gimei. For others, maybe it is because papers justify the quality or enhance the appeal. I don't exactly know either. What made you decide to submit your Tsukamoto Okimasa?

 

Well, with the many fake Yasukuni-to I have seen the last few years, I couldn't fault someone for submitting one to shinsa.

 

I submitted my Tsukamoto blade because someone tried to tell me that the NBTHK would not paper any blade with a stamp. Been there, done that, as they say, about 15 years ago.

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